Flounce

I've previously trained for and ridden up to a flat 300km brevet in February (about 14.5 hrs elapsed time). I haven't ridden much in the past 3 months for various reasons, among them resetting my bike fit to mitigate achilles tendinitis and patellofemoral syndrome, which appear to be held at bay.

I'm starting to train again, this time for a 400km ride.

I've read a some books and websites for my prior training, but wanted to get the advice of the experienced ultra riders on this forum for the ramp up in training.

Some info:

I'd like to do a solo 400km ride around October. Not part of brevet, as no 400km length brevets in my area until 2018.

I previously trained by alternating easy and hard (or long) riding days, gradually ramping up weekly miles and longest single ride until my longest ride was 3/4 the length of my targeted ride.

I work M-Th or Friday, with some training schedule like this: I'd do a 1-2 hour ride monday morning; High intensity intervals on Tue morning; 20 min recovery spin and core on Wed; 2-3 hour morning ride on Thurs; 20 min recovery spin and core exercises Friday; long ride on Saturday; 10 min recovery spin on Sunday.

Other than the high intensity intervals, all my rides are low intensity (keeping largely aerobic, using Mafettone's rule, my target is to stay 130-140bpm).

Every 4th week, I'd do a recovery week that is maybe 40-50 miles for the whole week, consisting of 2-3 days of hour-long low intensity spin rides separated by days off the bike.

I'd taper around 2 weeks before the event.
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If anyone can advise me on a plan to help me get to a 400km ride, it would be appreciated.

kingston 

Here's my normal training routine. It varies from week-to-week based on work, family, travel, etc., but here's the baseline, occasionally more, usually a bit less. 70-80 miles on Saturday as fast as I can go. Sunday I ride an easy 30-40. 20 miles fast twice during the week on non-consecutive days, two other days during the week I do a 30 minutes of core work. I have no problem finishing a full series with that training schedule. My last 400k was 20:32 which isn't particularly fast but still well under the limit.

Machka 

For me, if I can cover 400 km in a 3-day weekend, I can do a 400 km.

This year, I'm hoping that being able to cover just shy of 400 km over two weekends will do it.

Plus a whole lot of shorter rides of various lengths and intensities and on different terrains and under different environmental conditions.

Over the last couple weekends we've been putting in shorter rides (30-50 km) at a decent intensity, with some pretty challenging hills on several of the rides, on Saturday and Sunday, and then we go to the gym and do an intense spinning class + rowing on Monday. By Monday evening, my legs are wobbly! Tuesday is a walking day. Then Wednesday and Thursday back on the bicycle again. And Friday is a walking day to prepare for the weekend.


Be sure to get outside ... ride in the rain, ride in the wind, ride in hot weather, ride in cold weather, and ride at night.

Also tackle hills ... especially ride hills at night.

I'd make your recovery spins longer ... like 30 min. Go out for a casual ride around the neighbourhood after dark. And also get off the bicycle entirely at least one day per week. Go for a walk.

anotherbrian

400K's are _hard_.

I'd work up as quickly as possible to comfortably being able to ride a 100mi ride each weekend, and after a couple weeks of that bump it up to a 150mi ride (maybe alternate with the 100mi's).

10h of riding during the week is no replacement for a 10h ride. Do the high intensity for change, but I think you'll raise your base enough just riding at endurance pace, and your ultimate goal is probably going to require 18h+ on the bike.

Start some rides early early morning so you can ride in darkness with the easy out of the sun coming up, and then work up to starting rides so you must finish as you are becoming exhausted with a couple hours riding left in the dark.

unterhausen

I think 400k is easy, if you resign yourself to riding all night. Doing it faster is hard.

clasher

Best time I had on a 400 was when I stopped and ate a second supper around 10 or 11pm when the burger joints closed... I had a veggie burger. The first time I finished one in less than 24 hours it felt really good.

Carbonfiberboy 

The 3/4 rule kinda goes out the window after 200k. Sure it's best to go 200-300-400, but mostly because you'll learn pacing, fueling, hydration, bike position and that sort of thing. That progression is more about learning than about conditioning. For conditioning you want to be doing some weekly mileage, say 150 and up. But you also want to be doing some hard aerobic work, like 3 X 15' X 5' lactate threshold work. And some anaerobic work, say 4 X 8' X 4' hill repeats. Plus some speed work on the flat, say 6 X 45" X 5' at high cadence. It's important to work way harder in training that you ever would on a brevet. Naturally, that means shorter rides. I usually don't do over a 4-5 hour ride in training. So say 25 miles speed work, 30 miles hard hill repeats, one 60-75 mile weekend hard ride, so hard you can hardly walk at the end. Plus a recovery ride and a 2 hour endurance ride, mostly flat.

Anyway, that's what I've done when training for a 400 and it worked very well indeed. My fastest 400 (only 6600' climbing) was under 15 hours, longest over 18 hours of mountain riding. That was in my mid-60s.

reef58

When you write 3x15x5 do you mean 3) 15 minute intervals with 5 minutes rest between each, or are you do 5 sets of 3x15 minute intervals? I am starting with long distance and plan to do two rides per week. One interval day, probably Wednesday. I currently do two interval days per week. I also plan a long ride on Sunday getting progressively longer. I don't think I will do over 400k, but I would rather do it quickly. Now I do 2x20's, 3 x 20's, 6x5, or 5 to 10 x 1.

Carbonfiberboy 

Recovery time is the last number. The intervals I suggested are nothing special. What you are doing is about the same. This year I did another thing that worked well for me a couple weeks before a big ride - I did an hour's steady climb holding 3 beats below LTHR. That was a confidence builder.

reef58

Thanks. I am looking forward to my first 400k. Who knows when? I haven't decided whether to do it prior to the Assault on Mt Mitchell to help with a better time, or after to use the AOMM as a training ride for the 400k.

Flounce

Thank you, all.

It seems like there are two camps for training: long rides, high weekly mileage, mostly at low-ish intensity; and lower mileage, overall higher intensity, with a longer weekly ride thrown (but nothing near targeted distance of 400km).

For my previous training up to a 300km, I was more in the low intensity camp of building big base with big miles and high intensity Tabatas only once a week. But the higher intensity regimen is something I will try, as it works better for my current lifestyle. Consistently putting in 200+ miles per week is challenging for me (or rather, my wife and four young kids).

Questions:

When you say 3 X 15' X 5' with the 5' meaning recovery time, I'm assuming that's the rest between each of the hard intervals? Sorry if this is obvious.

Also, when you talk about lactate threshold work, vs. anaerobic work, I'm assuming you are using heart rate? If so, can you give me some detailed instruction for how to figure these out? I mean, I've read that I'm supposed to do a max heart rate test and then multiple my max heart rate by certain percentages. If you can instruct me on the particular test and percentage ranges for lactate threshold vs. anaerobic, I'd really appreciate it.

unterhausen

those things are really a lot easier with a power meter after taking an ftp test.

kingston 

Although I'm sure they must be out there, I have never met someone on a brevet who trains with a power meter. I also don't spend much time at the front, which you probably shouldn't expect either. You can finish a 400k in under 20 hours with a moving average of under 15 mph if you're efficient at the controls.

I also have four kids and have found that the best way to get in the long rides is to get up early. I often get up at 3:30 on the weekends so I can get in 4-5 hours and still be home before 9 and spend most of the day with the family.

unterhausen

if you want to train in a time-efficient manner, a power meter is the way to go. Right now, I just have one on my trainer, but it makes things totally different for me. Now if I could just get the cramping under control...

Carbonfiberboy 

Yes, the 5' is rest between intervals. Could be longer. I usually coast back down, pedal easy for a couple minutes on the flat and have at it again. Best to read up on it, see Joe Friel's blog on intervals, starting here: Joe Friel - Intervals, Part 1
That might answer all your questions about training with intensity.

Yes, I'm using HR as do most randonneurs. Ignore maximum HR, it's useless. Instead, focus on lactate threshold heart rate. Start here: CTS Field Test Instructions and Training Intensity Calculations - CTS
This should answer your questions about how to measure intensity.

Carbonfiberboy 

I thought I'd mention one more little interval thing since I just came in from doing it. FastPedal. This works best if you have a trainer or better, rollers. Today, I did 15' zone 1, then 20' of FastPedal - pedaling between 115-120 cadence in my 39X25, mostly in zone 2, so a very low gear, then 10' zone 1 cool-down, so 45' total. This is a very interesting exercise which I do on Tuesday almost every week year-round. 20' of continuous FastPedal is a short one. I go up to 45' in the spring. It's a recovery exercise, believe it or not.

If you can't pedal that fast without bouncing, pedal right at the edge of bouncing - you'll get better. If you can't pedal that fast and stay in zone 2, try a lower gear and/or get better at pedaling economy. So . . . you never push down. You pedal with the uppers, flat foot, relaxed ankle, cushion of air between bottom of foot and insole. If your legs are loading, you're working too hard, back off or gear down. This has been a very difficult exercise for me, which is the reason I do so much of it. If it were easy, I wouldn't do it. It's almost more mental than physical so by definition it's good for randoing.

The reason it doesn't work well outdoors is that it's hard to find 20'-45' of continuous nearly flat roadway with no stops. No stops is important.

Flounce

Thanks, I'll consider all of that.

What is the benefit of the FastPedal drills? I see it mentioned in some posts on the CTS website.

Carbonfiberboy 

Your legs hurt after. Other than that, improved coordination, better pedal stroke, thus more endurance. I think it has helped my climbing, oddly enough, or maybe not oddly at all. Efficient pedaling is all about getting the right muscles to fire at the right instant as well as teaching muscles to relax when not in use.

lieven

My first and up to now also last 400 kms I just went out and rode my bike without any specific training at all. Stopped often for food and drink and pedalled throughout the night - an absolute first for me. Luckily I liked it. I have been night riding a bit more now but more out of necessity as it is tool hot to ride throughout the day. Aiming for 600 kms next week-end even if I have bene riding only a little ultimately. Admittedly I am slow going, just 20 km/hour moving average.

StephenH

My training plan is "go ride a lot" and then when a 400k rolls around, I go ride it.

antimonysarah

Yeah. I guess -- do you want to successfully ride a 400k, or do you want to perform to some particular personal goal while doing it. Because you're already where you need to be with that 300k time, assuming a 400k with similar terrain. 15 hour 300k means you have 12 hours to ride the last 100k. No problem.

The main thing I wished I'd done more for my most recent 400k was core work, because I'd been neglecting it, and unlike previous 400ks, the thing that hurt the most at the end was my back and shoulders from being in the same position for 22+ hours. So if you had any positional-related soreness on the 300k, do something to fix it -- lift weights, pilates, whatever. (Lifting may help with the knee issues, too.) If I do intervals and hill work I'm faster, if I don't I have more brevet to enjoy. It is what it is.

unterhausen

I'm not doing that well this year with aches and pains, particularly my knees. But as far as neck and shoulder pain, I found that just rolling my shoulders got rid of that very well. On a 400k, I might have to do that many times. See this video at about 3:30;
https://www.pinkbike.com/video/439316/

znomit

The problem with 400s is that unless you're fast you're going to deal with sleep deprivation in that last 100. Thats what makes it a big step up from 300. Also the undercarriage niggles that start to annoy you towards the end of a 300 can become serious over the next 100km too. 400s are hard.

dual650c

Just getting in from a 350km solo training checkup (enroute to my goal of completing a 1200km this Fall). So here's my 2 cents.

I am in the "just go ride" and not worry about doing intervals camp. (By the way, I HATE intervals like the plague.) Since starting my quest to completing a 1200 this past January with basically zero base miles, I have worked thru riding 200 and 300km distances by simply adding miles each ride, absolutely no high intensity interval work - some would argue that's base building. Shrug - for me it was just what is my style. I've concentrated primarily on getting my cadence to a consistent low-90s rpm and being able to hold it for an hour at a time, then two..and so on. The secondary concentration area has been figuring out hydration and nutrition - lucky for me, I have a reasonably "cast-iron" stomach and I digest most things fairly easily, but real meals mean I'm digesting real food while pedaling in the low-mid-80s - so, I do lose some speed for about 30 minute periods every 4-5 hours or so (yeah, I DO eat real meals while riding).

Lastly, the thing that has been "beneficial if not pleasurable" is having ridden a fair bit in undesirable weather - wind, rain, high humidity(70%+) and heat(90-95F) - the last two are impossible to avoid where I live. By themselves, the environmental factors have each strained on my body/"the physical engine" in ways that I didn't anticipate but will hopefully be beneficial when I ride in the more pleasant conditions I hope to face on the 1200.

To sum up, I started with no miles to speak of, riding only 10 miles each on 3 days a week and worked my way up to 5 days a week riding at least 50-75 miles on 2or3 of those days at a target heart rate and cadence pace that I found work for me at any distance so far. I've completed 3 unofficial, solo 400km and 1-600km training rides not to mention a number of 200 and 300km rides all within "official" time limits. A few posters here have said this schedule is "over-training" considering the time period they've been completed in AND over-concentrating on endurance while ignoring "power". Shrug. I'm doing all of this solo - planning the routes, ride scheduling, and keeping track of what's working for me or not. (There's no one dumb enough to ride with me at this "pace" so...) I'm doing what *I* feel feels right at the time and that seems to be working for me.

The 400's are tougher on me than the 300's mainly because I get mentally bored around 275-325km and I can drift and lose focus during that period. Once I get over that, I'm okay. On the 300's by the time I'm bored, I'm already seeing the finish so it's easier.

By the way, I'm in my 60s, haven't lost an ounce of weight since January and my resting heart rate has stayed the same despite all this "cardio". Oh, and I ride a recumbent which means I get off the bike at the end of the ride and the only thing that is routinely sore now are my buttocks (none of this sore neck or back stuff for me).

Obviously, YMMV.