Training for sustained climbs?
#76
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#77
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I have been able to use the the glutes on the flats, but only for sustained speed at a low cadence. It's really hard to use the glutes at 90 RPM, just as its really hard on the quads at 75 RPM.
It's also hard to have bursts of acceleration, which can be needed on the flats, with glutes, the quads are used for this.
I'm referring to sustained climbing.
I think that this also leads into what type of rider you are. I can climb much better than I can ride fast on flat ground.
There are people who I ride with, who can easily average 20-21 MPH on flattish ground for 50+ miles,which would be really difficult for me.
But they can't keep up with me on hills, especially sustained climbs of over 1/2 a mile.
It's also hard to have bursts of acceleration, which can be needed on the flats, with glutes, the quads are used for this.
I'm referring to sustained climbing.
I think that this also leads into what type of rider you are. I can climb much better than I can ride fast on flat ground.
There are people who I ride with, who can easily average 20-21 MPH on flattish ground for 50+ miles,which would be really difficult for me.
But they can't keep up with me on hills, especially sustained climbs of over 1/2 a mile.
Anyway, your top paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense. If you;re using your glutes, you're using your quads as well. It's not like you're magically switching one off and another on. Push down on the pedal enough and you'll be engaging both.
If you don't think you can engage your glutes when pedaling over 75 rpm, then that's some whole other issue. I imagine if you rolled your hips forward and got your front end low you'd feel your glutes and lower back quite a bit more.
Again, back to the position aspect. You can hold the same position.
#78
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Years ago when I could do long climbing rides I would always get dropped by the little people on the climbs but I could make a lot of them work pretty hard on the flats.
#79
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I ride hills with several friends who weigh more than I do, 10-45 lbs more. They can put out a lot of power.
We've been in hill races together, and have finished very close to each other.
Of course, their power is higher but we're usually within 0.2 W/Kg of each other.
The one who is the overall best at hills weighs 15-20 lbs more than I do when we're both at race weight.
On the flats where W/Kg doesn't matter as much, generally they can all ride faster than I can.
#80
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Something that I feel that's helped me on long efforts is regular use of a rowing machine since COVID. It's strengthened my core and shoulders a bit so that I can hold positions on the bike for longer with less discomfort. Without a power meter, I don't know if it's actually done anything to strengthen my legs relative to last year, but I find that I'm coasting less, able to keep my head down for longer, and at least through these changes, I feel fresher on the relatively tiny hills that Manhattan has to offer.
Other than that, find a hill (or parking garage), and climb it. There's not much to prepare you for the mental aspect of a long climb besides for sitting on a long climb. Around here, 1 mi at 7% is about the best we got, and it was good for getting me to understand what a climb felt like - at least, up to a mile, up to 7%. Didn't help me on my first attempt up a 10% hill, but definitely helped with most other climbs that I've attempted.
Other than that, find a hill (or parking garage), and climb it. There's not much to prepare you for the mental aspect of a long climb besides for sitting on a long climb. Around here, 1 mi at 7% is about the best we got, and it was good for getting me to understand what a climb felt like - at least, up to a mile, up to 7%. Didn't help me on my first attempt up a 10% hill, but definitely helped with most other climbs that I've attempted.
#81
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Climbing comes down to W/Kg.
I ride hills with several friends who weigh more than I do, 10-45 lbs more. They can put out a lot of power.
We've been in hill races together, and have finished very close to each other.
Of course, their power is higher but we're usually within 0.2 W/Kg of each other.
The one who is the overall best at hills weighs 15-20 lbs more than I do when we're both at race weight.
On the flats where W/Kg doesn't matter as much, generally they can all ride faster than I can.
I ride hills with several friends who weigh more than I do, 10-45 lbs more. They can put out a lot of power.
We've been in hill races together, and have finished very close to each other.
Of course, their power is higher but we're usually within 0.2 W/Kg of each other.
The one who is the overall best at hills weighs 15-20 lbs more than I do when we're both at race weight.
On the flats where W/Kg doesn't matter as much, generally they can all ride faster than I can.
Also can't run the bars as low as when I was younger, so there's that.
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Climbing comes down to W/Kg.
I ride hills with several friends who weigh more than I do, 10-45 lbs more. They can put out a lot of power.
We've been in hill races together, and have finished very close to each other.
Of course, their power is higher but we're usually within 0.2 W/Kg of each other.
The one who is the overall best at hills weighs 15-20 lbs more than I do when we're both at race weight.
On the flats where W/Kg doesn't matter as much, generally they can all ride faster than I can.
I ride hills with several friends who weigh more than I do, 10-45 lbs more. They can put out a lot of power.
We've been in hill races together, and have finished very close to each other.
Of course, their power is higher but we're usually within 0.2 W/Kg of each other.
The one who is the overall best at hills weighs 15-20 lbs more than I do when we're both at race weight.
On the flats where W/Kg doesn't matter as much, generally they can all ride faster than I can.
#83
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Back to what the OP was asking.
He wrote that his glutes fatigued on the hills, and that he's used to riding on flat ground.
My experience is that sustained hill climbing does require more of a sit & burn than riding on flat ground, just as he suggested.
I have found it difficult to mimic that sit & burn on the flats.
He wrote that his glutes fatigued on the hills, and that he's used to riding on flat ground.
My experience is that sustained hill climbing does require more of a sit & burn than riding on flat ground, just as he suggested.
I have found it difficult to mimic that sit & burn on the flats.
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#86
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Back to what the OP was asking.
He wrote that his glutes fatigued on the hills, and that he's used to riding on flat ground.
My experience is that sustained hill climbing does require more of a sit & burn than riding on flat ground, just as he suggested.
I have found it difficult to mimic that sit & burn on the flats.
He wrote that his glutes fatigued on the hills, and that he's used to riding on flat ground.
My experience is that sustained hill climbing does require more of a sit & burn than riding on flat ground, just as he suggested.
I have found it difficult to mimic that sit & burn on the flats.
#87
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Cadence more than position, glutes are more efficient at a lower cadence, quads at a higher cadence.
Same here, but when I do a longer ride on flat(-ish) ground at a relative high-power for me, I end up lowering the cadence & using my glutes.
Because I don't get resistance from gravity, the feeling is completely different.
This is just my experience.
Because I don't get resistance from gravity, the feeling is completely different.
This is just my experience.
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So ride climbs at a higher cadence, and ride flats at a lower cadence. The two will converge with enough training and you can ride whichever cadence wherever (with appropriate gearing, of course).
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When the snow is gone and I move off the trainer or flatland rides on the warmer days, I found that my first few sustained climbs (2000 ft. plus) every year involved an uncomfortable amount of sit pain and weak glutes - mitigated a bit by how much hard skiing I had been able to get in. A couple of years ago, I started raising the front wheel on the trainer to mimic an 8% grade, manually programmed in a steady 210 watts (75% of FTP), and pedaled a relatively low cadence (75) for 75 to 90 minutes at least once a week over the winter. For me, it was problem solved. It did not make me faster, so much as it made me comfortable enough to go faster longer.
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But getting to Rubik's argument - he's right. I'm a terrible climber. The one year I spent my off-season working on bolstering my endurance and doing lots of long efforts on the trainer, e.g. of 20-min at steady power - was the one year I climbed well.
So, yes, it's entirely possible to go from a trainer - with a level bike - and climb well.
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I think most track racers would disagree with you on this.
But getting to Rubik's argument - he's right. I'm a terrible climber. The one year I spent my off-season working on bolstering my endurance and doing lots of long efforts on the trainer, e.g. of 20-min at steady power - was the one year I climbed well.
So, yes, it's entirely possible to go from a trainer - with a level bike - and climb well.
But getting to Rubik's argument - he's right. I'm a terrible climber. The one year I spent my off-season working on bolstering my endurance and doing lots of long efforts on the trainer, e.g. of 20-min at steady power - was the one year I climbed well.
So, yes, it's entirely possible to go from a trainer - with a level bike - and climb well.
His comment was about the windup which is all about taking a big gear and accelerating a load i.e changing speed of a high inertial load up to flying 200 meter speed before the start line. He was correct.
In pursuit, it is my quads that are are on fire at the end of the race not my ass.
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Get plenty of miles in relatively flat areas but did some riding in the mountains recently and my glutes seemed to be fatiguing quicker than the legs. My theory is that I get out of the saddle more in the flats for shorter climbs but mountains require a sustained sit and burn. Is there anything I can do besides the obvious of more mountain miles?
I use a coach from time to time who has coached UCI world tour pros. I would ask him what his guys were doing to get ready for the tour. He had them doing long rides on flat terrain at 25 mph in the wind. He said the most challenging terrain is flat with headwind - high constant speed, higher inertial load, mentally taxing and variable power over long periods of time. Of course the world tour riders are fantastic at everything so it is hard to find challenging routines for them.
My suggestion is find a windy route and ride into the wind at sweet spot or threshold power for 20 to 30 minutes at a time. On the way back, use the tail wind like a motor and ride over speed at sweet spot.
We all have the terrain that we have. These are a couple of ideas for you.
Last edited by Hermes; 08-26-20 at 12:45 PM.
#93
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A climbing cadence should be part of training for the mountains. You need lots of watts per Kg, but it should be applied at 70-85 rpm. If I'm climbing at a much higher cadence, it's a real easy climb. If I'm below 70, I'm probably on a 12% grade.
I did plenty of mountain training, right from my door step, after moving to Colorado at age 50. I rode the Mt. Evans hillclmb route twice a year to test my abilities at ages 51-53. I did my best and last time of 2:35 at age 53. That would usually get into the top 10 for my age group.
Now I'm 67 with two replacement knees and my average speed is down by about 2 mph, but I still ride a regular 52 mile route from loveland to estes park or other similar route 3 times per week. My other routes have steeper climbs, but they're not as scenic. I still weigh about 134 lbs, so I'm not carrying excess baggage.
I used a powertap rear hub for a couple of years after age 53, but I didn't get much from it.
I did plenty of mountain training, right from my door step, after moving to Colorado at age 50. I rode the Mt. Evans hillclmb route twice a year to test my abilities at ages 51-53. I did my best and last time of 2:35 at age 53. That would usually get into the top 10 for my age group.
Now I'm 67 with two replacement knees and my average speed is down by about 2 mph, but I still ride a regular 52 mile route from loveland to estes park or other similar route 3 times per week. My other routes have steeper climbs, but they're not as scenic. I still weigh about 134 lbs, so I'm not carrying excess baggage.
I used a powertap rear hub for a couple of years after age 53, but I didn't get much from it.
#94
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No joke, I had a guy pass me on a hill climb with a small backpack on. When I caught up to him at the stop light I could see what looks like a dumbbell in the backpack. Not sure I asked him if it was a dumbbell. He said "Yes it is. Its a 20lb dumbbell." He said it helps him with his endurance when climbing hills. Wow.
#95
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No joke, I had a guy pass me on a hill climb with a small backpack on. When I caught up to him at the stop light I could see what looks like a dumbbell in the backpack. Not sure I asked him if it was a dumbbell. He said "Yes it is. Its a 20lb dumbbell." He said it helps him with his endurance when climbing hills. Wow.
"Were they on a tandem?"
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#96
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I don't have any great ideas to add to this thread. I got better at doing mountain climbs by riding the heck out of my bike on every gradient and length of hill which was readily available to me, but particularly by doing that on 4-5 hour rides. I would go from doing say 3000' rides in 70 miles, as hard as I could directly to 6000' in 55 miles, and doing well on the latter. So I guess those who say just go hard for long periods in whatever terrain are correct IME.
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#97
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This pretty much encompasses what I've been writing about with my personal experiences with training for long climbs.
I've done the Mt. Washington race (7.6 miles, 12% average grade, doesn't drop below ~8%, has an extended section at 18%, the finish is at 22%).
That's sustained climbing that one really can't mimic on flat ground, and only can on the trainer under certain conditions (AdZ on Zwift?).
It requires constant output for well over an hour, and ~3.6-4.0w/Kg to finish in under 1:20:00, the cutoff for "Top Notch"
I haven't made the podium, but several of my friends have (lightweights & clydesdales alike), and they've been at a lower cadence, using their glutes over their quads.
The only track racer who I ride with (and he's damn good one) has gigantic quads, can out-sprint just about anyone, but can't beat any of us up any hill.
I've done Mt. Washington at 3.98w/kg at my best. I trained on my Kickr with glute-drills, outside with short (~1/2 mile) hill repeats, and some longer (2-mile) hill repeats that were an hour drive from home. I also did some one-hour hammer rides on flat ground, just for the aerobic endurance. All of my friends who've had success at the race have done pretty much the same. One of them is a clydesdale who podiumed, he weighed 40 lbs more than I did at race time (I finished ahead of him, but we were in different categories). We trained together in the weeks leading up to the race. I don't think that we could have done the same by training on flat ground.
Others may think differently.
Last edited by Dancing Skeleton; 08-26-20 at 07:07 PM.
#98
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My coach has me do a drill where I try to use my glutes at a high cadence, then my quads at a low cadence, each going to near complete fatigue.
He calls it his crossover drill, and it's very effective at finding the sweet-spot (cadence & W/Kg) at where the glutes yield to the quads, and it's different for everyone.
But it does help find the cadence and W/Kg that will allow for extended climbing.
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Something that I feel that's helped me on long efforts is regular use of a rowing machine since COVID. It's strengthened my core and shoulders a bit so that I can hold positions on the bike for longer with less discomfort. Without a power meter, I don't know if it's actually done anything to strengthen my legs relative to last year, but I find that I'm coasting less, able to keep my head down for longer, and at least through these changes, I feel fresher on the relatively tiny hills that Manhattan has to offer.
Other than that, find a hill (or parking garage), and climb it. There's not much to prepare you for the mental aspect of a long climb besides for sitting on a long climb. Around here, 1 mi at 7% is about the best we got, and it was good for getting me to understand what a climb felt like - at least, up to a mile, up to 7%. Didn't help me on my first attempt up a 10% hill, but definitely helped with most other climbs that I've attempted.
Other than that, find a hill (or parking garage), and climb it. There's not much to prepare you for the mental aspect of a long climb besides for sitting on a long climb. Around here, 1 mi at 7% is about the best we got, and it was good for getting me to understand what a climb felt like - at least, up to a mile, up to 7%. Didn't help me on my first attempt up a 10% hill, but definitely helped with most other climbs that I've attempted.
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Do you find yourself getting lost in the beauty of a mountain climb? That is, I lose track of time and the effort involved as if meditating or in deep thought.
Last edited by CAT7RDR; 08-27-20 at 01:27 PM.
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