big john

Why? Is it a mental thing or just because you can't find the right road to do it on?

rubiksoval

They can't keep up with you on hills because they weigh more than you and aren't putting out enough watts to compensate for the weight difference. Whereas on the flats, where that weight doesn't come into play, they're putting out more overall watts than you.

Anyway, your top paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense. If you;re using your glutes, you're using your quads as well. It's not like you're magically switching one off and another on. Push down on the pedal enough and you'll be engaging both.

If you don't think you can engage your glutes when pedaling over 75 rpm, then that's some whole other issue. I imagine if you rolled your hips forward and got your front end low you'd feel your glutes and lower back quite a bit more.

Again, back to the position aspect. You can hold the same position.

big john

Years ago when I could do long climbing rides I would always get dropped by the little people on the climbs but I could make a lot of them work pretty hard on the flats.

Dancing Skeleton

Climbing comes down to W/Kg.
I ride hills with several friends who weigh more than I do, 10-45 lbs more. They can put out a lot of power.
We've been in hill races together, and have finished very close to each other.
Of course, their power is higher but we're usually within 0.2 W/Kg of each other.
The one who is the overall best at hills weighs 15-20 lbs more than I do when we're both at race weight.

On the flats where W/Kg doesn't matter as much, generally they can all ride faster than I can.

aliasfox

Something that I feel that's helped me on long efforts is regular use of a rowing machine since COVID. It's strengthened my core and shoulders a bit so that I can hold positions on the bike for longer with less discomfort. Without a power meter, I don't know if it's actually done anything to strengthen my legs relative to last year, but I find that I'm coasting less, able to keep my head down for longer, and at least through these changes, I feel fresher on the relatively tiny hills that Manhattan has to offer.

Other than that, find a hill (or parking garage), and climb it. There's not much to prepare you for the mental aspect of a long climb besides for sitting on a long climb. Around here, 1 mi at 7% is about the best we got, and it was good for getting me to understand what a climb felt like - at least, up to a mile, up to 7%. Didn't help me on my first attempt up a 10% hill, but definitely helped with most other climbs that I've attempted.

big john

I know. I just can't make the power I could 20 years ago, or even 10, actually. At least not as long as I could. If I had more discipline and control over my diet I would be better but I'm lighter now than I have been in decades (200). Still love the mountains, going tomorrow for a few hours.

Also can't run the bars as low as when I was younger, so there's that.

caloso

Exactly. My son and I have been racing a socially distant TT series over the spring and summer. I'm probably 15kg heavier than he is. Still faster than him on the flats but he absolutely kills me on the hlll climbs. If I can put out 300w, and he puts out 260, he drops me like a rock on anything over 5%.

Dancing Skeleton

Back to what the OP was asking.
He wrote that his glutes fatigued on the hills, and that he's used to riding on flat ground.
My experience is that sustained hill climbing does require more of a sit & burn than riding on flat ground, just as he suggested.
I have found it difficult to mimic that sit & burn on the flats.

Dancing Skeleton

Neither.
I'm more efficient using my glutes than I am using my quads, and my glutes are more active on climbs than they are on flats.

big john

There must be a reason for that. It could be cadence or position or ?

big john

I understand this but then I always have hills and have not tried to train for hills on the flats.

Dancing Skeleton

Cadence more than position, glutes are more efficient at a lower cadence, quads at a higher cadence.

Same here, but when I do a longer ride on flat(-ish) ground at a relative high-power for me, I end up lowering the cadence & using my glutes.
Because I don't get resistance from gravity, the feeling is completely different.

This is just my experience.

rubiksoval

So ride climbs at a higher cadence, and ride flats at a lower cadence. The two will converge with enough training and you can ride whichever cadence wherever (with appropriate gearing, of course).

tigat

When the snow is gone and I move off the trainer or flatland rides on the warmer days, I found that my first few sustained climbs (2000 ft. plus) every year involved an uncomfortable amount of sit pain and weak glutes - mitigated a bit by how much hard skiing I had been able to get in. A couple of years ago, I started raising the front wheel on the trainer to mimic an 8% grade, manually programmed in a steady 210 watts (75% of FTP), and pedaled a relatively low cadence (75) for 75 to 90 minutes at least once a week over the winter. For me, it was problem solved. It did not make me faster, so much as it made me comfortable enough to go faster longer.

topflightpro

I think most track racers would disagree with you on this.

But getting to Rubik's argument - he's right. I'm a terrible climber. The one year I spent my off-season working on bolstering my endurance and doing lots of long efforts on the trainer, e.g. of 20-min at steady power - was the one year I climbed well.

So, yes, it's entirely possible to go from a trainer - with a level bike - and climb well.

Hermes

One thing for sure, each track racer and coach will have an opinion. My sprint coach told me after a flying 200 meters that he was not seeing my glutes bulging during the windup. This is the beauty of having a coach with you in the moment to get comments like that. He had other sprinters on the track and was just making an observation about me compared to others which is what I was paying him for.

His comment was about the windup which is all about taking a big gear and accelerating a load i.e changing speed of a high inertial load up to flying 200 meter speed before the start line. He was correct.

In pursuit, it is my quads that are are on fire at the end of the race not my ass.

Hermes

Glutes fatiguing quicker is interesting. There may be a bike fit issue but probably not. Generally, one engages the glutes more in a low position in the drops slid back on the saddle while lifting the chest. Let’s assume your fit is okay. I would suggest riding more in the drops. Also, I would do accelerations from a stop in a big gear, in the drops while lifting the chest. Lifting the chest flattens the back and engages the glutes...think dead lift.

I use a coach from time to time who has coached UCI world tour pros. I would ask him what his guys were doing to get ready for the tour. He had them doing long rides on flat terrain at 25 mph in the wind. He said the most challenging terrain is flat with headwind - high constant speed, higher inertial load, mentally taxing and variable power over long periods of time. Of course the world tour riders are fantastic at everything so it is hard to find challenging routines for them.

My suggestion is find a windy route and ride into the wind at sweet spot or threshold power for 20 to 30 minutes at a time. On the way back, use the tail wind like a motor and ride over speed at sweet spot.

We all have the terrain that we have. These are a couple of ideas for you.

DaveSSS 

A climbing cadence should be part of training for the mountains. You need lots of watts per Kg, but it should be applied at 70-85 rpm. If I'm climbing at a much higher cadence, it's a real easy climb. If I'm below 70, I'm probably on a 12% grade.

I did plenty of mountain training, right from my door step, after moving to Colorado at age 50. I rode the Mt. Evans hillclmb route twice a year to test my abilities at ages 51-53. I did my best and last time of 2:35 at age 53. That would usually get into the top 10 for my age group.

Now I'm 67 with two replacement knees and my average speed is down by about 2 mph, but I still ride a regular 52 mile route from loveland to estes park or other similar route 3 times per week. My other routes have steeper climbs, but they're not as scenic. I still weigh about 134 lbs, so I'm not carrying excess baggage.

I used a powertap rear hub for a couple of years after age 53, but I didn't get much from it.

saddlesniffer

No joke, I had a guy pass me on a hill climb with a small backpack on. When I caught up to him at the stop light I could see what looks like a dumbbell in the backpack. Not sure I asked him if it was a dumbbell. He said "Yes it is. Its a 20lb dumbbell." He said it helps him with his endurance when climbing hills. Wow.

genejockey 

"I was passed on a climb by a guy with a dumbbell."
"Were they on a tandem?"

Carbonfiberboy 

Several years ago I was out on one of my local routes, mostly quite flat with good shoulders and low traffic, and saw an oncoming rider down on his clip-ons with a cat nestled on his forearms. The cat's eyes were very wide, but he/she seemed to be enjoying it. Honest. I don't remember if he was wearing a long sleeved jersey. You were apparently using the wrong equipment.

I don't have any great ideas to add to this thread. I got better at doing mountain climbs by riding the heck out of my bike on every gradient and length of hill which was readily available to me, but particularly by doing that on 4-5 hour rides. I would go from doing say 3000' rides in 70 miles, as hard as I could directly to 6000' in 55 miles, and doing well on the latter. So I guess those who say just go hard for long periods in whatever terrain are correct IME.

Dancing Skeleton

This pretty much encompasses what I've been writing about with my personal experiences with training for long climbs.
I've done the Mt. Washington race (7.6 miles, 12% average grade, doesn't drop below ~8%, has an extended section at 18%, the finish is at 22%).
That's sustained climbing that one really can't mimic on flat ground, and only can on the trainer under certain conditions (AdZ on Zwift?).
It requires constant output for well over an hour, and ~3.6-4.0w/Kg to finish in under 1:20:00, the cutoff for "Top Notch"
I haven't made the podium, but several of my friends have (lightweights & clydesdales alike), and they've been at a lower cadence, using their glutes over their quads.
The only track racer who I ride with (and he's damn good one) has gigantic quads, can out-sprint just about anyone, but can't beat any of us up any hill.
I've done Mt. Washington at 3.98w/kg at my best. I trained on my Kickr with glute-drills, outside with short (~1/2 mile) hill repeats, and some longer (2-mile) hill repeats that were an hour drive from home. I also did some one-hour hammer rides on flat ground, just for the aerobic endurance. All of my friends who've had success at the race have done pretty much the same. One of them is a clydesdale who podiumed, he weighed 40 lbs more than I did at race time (I finished ahead of him, but we were in different categories). We trained together in the weeks leading up to the race. I don't think that we could have done the same by training on flat ground.

Others may think differently.

Dancing Skeleton

Interesting that you point this out.
My coach has me do a drill where I try to use my glutes at a high cadence, then my quads at a low cadence, each going to near complete fatigue.
He calls it his crossover drill, and it's very effective at finding the sweet-spot (cadence & W/Kg) at where the glutes yield to the quads, and it's different for everyone.
But it does help find the cadence and W/Kg that will allow for extended climbing.

Seattle Forrest

That part's easier than people think before they do it. The scenery distracts a lot. If you're gaining enough elevation you'll notice the ecology change around you, it's pretty cool. Gives you something else to focus on.

CAT7RDR

Exactly! Some of us are older, heavier and damn glad just to complete a hard climb. The mountains keep on giving back the more I ascend.

Do you find yourself getting lost in the beauty of a mountain climb? That is, I lose track of time and the effort involved as if meditating or in deep thought.