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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

Old 09-21-20, 11:45 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
No one? Seriously?
I know, right? I batted my eyes severely over paying $250 for a new wheelset.
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Old 09-21-20, 11:47 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
People these days who are average recreational riders are sold design and technology developed and only really helpful for road racing. Lycra kit, $300 helmets, electronic shifting, fragile sub 15lb frames, low spoke wheels, heart rate monitors, power meters, gps linked computers, CO2 cartridges, etc... Consider that most people who buy race designed bikes never enter a bicycle race.
???

What people here think of as "average recreational riders" aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing (**).

Most "enthusiast riders" (maybe, who you are talking about?) aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing either.

The people in the second group are much more likely to (now) buy "endurance" frames that can take 25/28 mm tires.

===============

** I'm assuming you mean "sub 15lib bicycles".
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Old 09-21-20, 11:51 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by fishboat
You've been on it for quite a while already
??? Isn't the point of having him on the ignore list to ignore him?
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Old 09-21-20, 12:09 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
B-b-but those kind of people and their posts, alleged "goals" and thoughts are apparently unworthy and held in contempt by the would-be Kool Kidz of BF, eh?

Lighten up, Francis. Except OP and you, pretty much everyone else here is being pretty polite even when they disagree.

Only point I'm making is sometimes people lose perspective on how much "serious" cycling is done on very cheap equipment. Don't try to enlist me in your holy war.

I think you might have something interesting to say about the Grant Petersen paradox--he seems to be writing about bikes for the "everyman" potential rider, but he builds bikes for people who are willing to pay relatively large sums for bikes whose primary appeal are reliability and opulence. Think you could drop the baseball bat and actually write substantively on topic for a change?
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Old 09-21-20, 12:12 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
??? Isn't the point of having him on the ignore list to ignore him?
HA! Shows what YOU know! The point of having an "Ignore List" is to TELL people you're ignoring them, like when you were a kid and you told your sibling - repeatedly - that you weren't talking to him/her.
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Old 09-21-20, 12:15 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I know, right? I batted my eyes severely over paying $250 for a new wheelset.

I have a philosophy that says buying cheap wheelsets is better than buying mid-range. Expensive wheelsets try to be light and durable, cheap ones tend to be durable but heavy. Middle-range ones tend to be lighter than cheap, but not as durable.

I buy a mid-range wheelset, I'm spending a lot of time getting the wheels trued. Pothole avoidance is not one of my better skills.
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Old 09-21-20, 12:16 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
HA! Shows what YOU know! The point of having an "Ignore List" is to TELL people you're ignoring them, like when you were a kid and you told your sibling - repeatedly - that you weren't talking to him/her.
There's a nut on another subforum who repeatedly tells me he has me on ignore and still replies to my posts. So, yeah, it's a mystery to me.

They don't realize that it's a benefit to the person who is placed on the ignore list.
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Old 09-21-20, 12:18 PM
  #83  
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Grant Petersen should get credit for chapping the asses of so many people on BF.

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Old 09-21-20, 12:21 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I have a philosophy that says buying cheap wheelsets is better than buying mid-range. Expensive wheelsets try to be light and durable, cheap ones tend to be durable but heavy. Middle-range ones tend to be lighter than cheap, but not as durable.

I buy a mid-range wheelset, I'm spending a lot of time getting the wheels trued. Pothole avoidance is not one of my better skills.
"Strong. Light. Cheap. Choose any two." - Keith Bontrager, supposedly.

I was happy ten years ago, paying over $600 for a set of custom wheels for my Battaglin from a very good local wheelmaker, because he promised me that even at my then-weight, he could build me a 28/32 wheelset with butted spokes that would last for years of riding. And he did, and they have. They finally needed a little bit of truing after about 6000 miles, and hitting a pothole so hard it tossed my bottles out of the cages. It was just enough wobble that I couldn't run my brakes as close to the rim as I like, which is real close.

OTOH, when the Fulcrum Racing 5s on my 2006 Bianchi developed cracks at the spoke holes, I went for a direct replacement with 2020 Racing 5s, but still hesitated at the $250 price from PBK. I got over it.
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Old 09-21-20, 12:23 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
HA! Shows what YOU know! The point of having an "Ignore List" is to TELL people you're ignoring them, like when you were a kid and you told your sibling - repeatedly - that you weren't talking to him/her.

I try to keep the "you're on my list" message down to one--the last one to them ever. Anything else looks kind of stupid.

Problem comes up when someone on my ignore list gets quoted talking about me. Unless the person quoting them is on my ignore list, I'm going to see it and notice it.

I've had a few where I get so sick of an argument, I put them on the list to avoid getting trolled back in, then realize literally no one but me ever quotes that person despite their voluminous posts. Gotta figure they're on a bit more than a few lists.
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Old 09-21-20, 12:24 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I think you've mischaracterized his stance a bit. His point is that a lot of people are being driven away from bicycling because the marketing is pushing the idea that ordinary riding requires people to be kitted out as if they were racing. In his view, people are either being conned into over-spending for features that are unsuitable for the type of riding they're really going to be doing with false promises that these features will make them faster, or they're just not going to take up biking because they don't want to dress up like low-rent astronauts.
It's might be more complicated than that.

Petersen can't really compete with the rest of the industry. So, he competes against it (appealing to a niche market). Rivendell bikes are expensive enough to have the same sort of problem "requires people to be kitted out" does (it's kind of expensive/exclusive either way). Petersen also appears to relish being "contrarian".

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Old 09-21-20, 01:15 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
???

What people here think of as "average recreational riders" aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing (**).

Most "enthusiast riders" (maybe, who you are talking about?) aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing either.

The people in the second group are much more likely to (now) buy "endurance" frames that can take 25/28 mm tires.

===============

** I'm assuming you mean "sub 15lib bicycles".
No, I meant sub 15lb frames. lb being an abrv for pound. I have no idea what sub 15lib means.

As to what what the industry is pushing; walk into a modern Trek store and tell me what you think.

One can argue the bits and pieces of what I wrote but the basic premise stands. The current industry is pushing in one direction, People like GP offer a counter balance.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-21-20 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 09-21-20, 01:21 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
No, I meant sub 15lb frames. lb being an abrv for pound.
??? I don't think many of the Rivendell frames are 15 pounds or more. I don't think the frame of my touring bike is anywhere near that heavy.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet
As to what what the industry is pushing; walk into a modern Trek store and tell me what you think.
The industry has been doing this for years. In any case, they aren't really pushing these on "average recreational riders".

Rivendell bikes are fairly expensive. They aren't being sold to "average recreational riders". It's elitism too but a different type of elitism.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet
People like GP offer a counter balance.
Yes.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 09-21-20, 01:26 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
??? I don't think many of the Rivendell frames are 15 pounds or more.
sigh.. you win the obtuse sarcastic slacker award.
Congrats. My mistake to think you were being intellectually honest in the discussion.
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Old 09-21-20, 01:33 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Where I think there's a disconnect between his product line and his writing is that much of his "racing is ruining the industry" argument is based on racing mentality creating a high cost barrier to entry for consumers, and his frames being very expensive...
That’s the conundrum, isn’t it? I’m enough of a retrogrouch to ride basic steel frame bikes and to get where he’s coming from about half of the time. But I’m also into doing my own bike stuff, and I can do all the same riding on an old bike I fix up for maybe $300-400. GP even acknowledges that a vintage MTB fixed up with swept back bars is about equivalent to a Clem.

Otto
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Old 09-21-20, 01:33 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
sigh.. you win the obtuse sarcastic slacker award.
Congrats. My mistake to think you were being intellectually honest in the discussion.
You win the "I can't make an argument so I'll resort to insults" award.

You aren't making much sense. That's on you.

What sort of 15 pound frames are you talking about? (It would make somewhat more sense if you were talking about frame sets.)

Whatever Petersen is saying, he isn't selling bikes to "average recreational riders".

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Old 09-21-20, 01:41 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
HA! Shows what YOU know! The point of having an "Ignore List" is to TELL people you're ignoring them, like when you were a kid and you told your sibling - repeatedly - that you weren't talking to him/her.
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Old 09-21-20, 01:44 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
You win the "I can't make an argument so I'll resort to insults" award.

You aren't making much sense. That's on you.

What sort of 15 pound frames are you talking about? (It would make somewhat more sense if you were talking about frame sets.)

Whatever Petersen is saying, he isn't selling bikes to "average recreational riders".
I'll make sure next time, if I ever direct my conversation towards you, to have the proofreaders and lawyers look over the final drafts as you cannot be expected to exhibit even a moderate capacity to interpret.

The lawyer says to confirm 15lb bicycle so this doesn't go on for 5 pages. What's a liv?

And we already covered the disconnect between what he writes and sells many posts back. Probably someone should have explicitly pointed that out as you couldn't be expected to inform yourself.

Your attempt to discredit by fixating on what anyone else could easily understand is the insult in a reasonable discussion. It's lazy, and what someone without anything constructive to say.. says.

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Old 09-21-20, 02:13 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
The lawyer says to confirm 15lb bicycle so this doesn't go on for 5 pages.
??? You said 15 pound frame. Twice.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet
No, I meant sub 15lb frames.
I asked what you meant and you repeated that you meant frames (not bicycles).

"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles either.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Your attempt to discredit by fixating on what anyone else could easily understand is the insult in a reasonable discussion.
You could have said you meant bicycles instead of frames. But you are, weirdly, blaming other people for your bad choice of words. Which is nonsensical and more work!


Originally Posted by Happy Feet
It's lazy, and what someone without anything constructive to say.. says.
It make no sense to go on about frames when you mean bicycles. That's on you!

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Old 09-21-20, 02:33 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
??? You said 15 pound frame. Twice.


I asked what you meant and you repeated that you meant frames (not bicycles).

"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles either.


It make no sense to go on about frames when you mean bicycles. That's on you!
In the context of this discussion a reasonable person would know what I meant. It did not help that you then mistakenly asked if I meant a "15 liv bicycle". Why won't you tell us what a liv is? Pot meet kettle.

Focusing on what is an obviously understood error while making one yourself is "on you" as you would say.

Srsly.. did you really think I meant the current industry is pushing advanced technology towards recreational riders with sub 15lb frames? Or would a reasonable person assume I meant sub 15 lb bikes. Try not to play the darling innocent to hard.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:35 PM
  #96  
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I smell a stinky sock.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:47 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Originally Posted by njkayaker
** I'm assuming you mean "sub 15lib bicycles".
No, I meant sub 15lb frames. lb being an abrv for pound. I have no idea what sub 15lib means.
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I have no idea what sub 15lib means.
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
What's a liv?
Your attempt to discredit by fixating on what anyone else could easily understand is the insult in a reasonable discussion.
In the context of this discussion a reasonable person would know what I meant.


Keep digging!

Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Srsly.. did you really think I meant the current industry is pushing advanced technology towards recreational riders with sub 15lb frames? Or would a reasonable person assume I meant sub 15 lb bikes. Try not to play the darling innocent to hard.
You said you meant frame. You "clarified" what you meant by repeating the error. And then you repeatedly went on and on about a simple typo that was easy to understand!

You could have said you meant bicycle and avoided all this.


"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles either.

So, even with the non-correction correction, you still don't make sense.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:53 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker


Dude, you went on and on about a typo!

Keep digging!
Don't hurt your hand patting your back.

Did you have anything meaningful to say in this thread or is your contribution only going to be limited to proofreading other peoples ideas?

I like to argue ideas not people. #bored .
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Old 09-21-20, 03:00 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
I smell a stinky sock.
ikr!
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Old 09-21-20, 03:10 PM
  #100  
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[QUOTE=Happy Feet;21706071]
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I have no idea what sub 15lib means.
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
What's a liv?
I like to argue ideas not people. #bored .
No, you like to argue about typos.

"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 03:17 PM.
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