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What does an expensive frame get you?

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What does an expensive frame get you?

Old 09-16-20, 11:58 AM
  #126  
popeye
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Mark, for about $1200 I upgraded the wife's 2005 Roubaix pro DA7800 to Ultegra DI2. After demonstrating that everything was going to be fine I drilled the frame and routed the wires internally. It has been a great improvement for her (somewhat shifting challenged) and no more requests for a new bike (more important to me) and less mantenence. I can't tell the difference from my DA DI2. This is an example where more buks don't really help that much.
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Old 09-16-20, 12:21 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by popeye
For a crit bike AL is as light and stiff as required. It will be very lively as AL is the densest material available will will transmit every shock. The better AL bikes try to replace as many AL parts as they can with CF. Comfort can be improved with geometry but you are still fighting the properties of the material. For the record CF has an unlimited fatigue life as opposed to AL with has a short fatigue life followed by titanium welds (also virtually unrepairable along with AL due to the need to autoclave the welds. There are choices out there for CF repair and it is not difficult or unreasonably expensive.
What on earth do you mean by "autoclaving the welds"? An industrial autoclave might get you a couple of atmospheres evaluate pressure and temps up to maybe 160-180C - great for composites, but neither of which will have the slightest effect on most metals. If you're talking about heat treating Al, this is usually done anywhere from ~260C to 500C - in an oven, not an autoclave. Ti is heat treated at even higher temps. In any event, while Ti welding/repair might be technically trickier, Ti is so far from "unrepairable". People repair Ti frames routinely.
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Old 09-16-20, 12:39 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Litespud
What on earth do you mean by "autoclaving the welds"? An industrial autoclave might get you a couple of atmospheres evaluate pressure and temps up to maybe 160-180C - great for composites, but neither of which will have the slightest effect on most metals. If you're talking about heat treating Al, this is usually done anywhere from ~260C to 500C - in an oven, not an autoclave. Ti is heat treated at even higher temps. In any event, while Ti welding/repair might be technically trickier, Ti is so far from "unrepairable". People repair Ti frames routinely.
No not really unrepairable at any expense. Substitute heat treating and annealing for autoclave. At any rate given enough cycles Ti, Al and steel all will fail unlike CF.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:18 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Litespud
What on earth do you mean by "autoclaving the welds"? An industrial autoclave might get you a couple of atmospheres evaluate pressure and temps up to maybe 160-180C - great for composites, but neither of which will have the slightest effect on most metals. If you're talking about heat treating Al, this is usually done anywhere from ~260C to 500C - in an oven, not an autoclave. Ti is heat treated at even higher temps. In any event, while Ti welding/repair might be technically trickier, Ti is so far from "unrepairable". People repair Ti frames routinely.
My friend crashed badly his Ti Motobecane and the downtube slightly bent and cracked. He could not find where to repair it for any reasonable money so he bought a new carbon bike. He chose carbon because the carbon fork in the Motobecane seemed did not suffer any damage in the crash.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:41 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by popeye
No not really unrepairable at any expense. Substitute heat treating and annealing for autoclave. At any rate given enough cycles Ti, Al and steel all will fail unlike CF.
You're gone from "virtually unrepairable" to "unrepairable for a price I'm not willing to pay" - slightly different. The are commercial entities that repair Ti frames, so clearly repairing Ti has some economic viability. In any event, I agree that carbon has excellent fatigue resistance (although I'm not sure that I'd take "unlimited" to the bank), and you may be right that steel and Ti will, given enough cycles, ultimately fail. However, I'm pretty sure that, if the elastic limit of the material is not exceeded, a well-made steel or Ti frame will outlive the rider. To my mind, how long the frame survives after that is academic.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:49 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by tankist
My friend crashed badly his Ti Motobecane and the downtube slightly bent and cracked. He could not find where to repair it for any reasonable money so he bought a new carbon bike. He chose carbon because the carbon fork in the Motobecane seemed did not suffer any damage in the crash.
I'm not sure that I would pay to have a Ti Motobecane repaired either. However, if I trashed my Litespeed, I would give serious consideration to having it repaired, as long as the price didn't exceed the cost of a replacement.
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Old 09-18-20, 08:10 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Litespud
I'm not sure that I would pay to have a Ti Motobecane repaired either. However, if I trashed my Litespeed, I would give serious consideration to having it repaired, as long as the price didn't exceed the cost of a replacement.
Agree. If I crashed and damaged my Lynskey I'd cry. First, because it probably hurt, and then again for the damage.

Then it would get packaged up and sent in for an inspection.
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Old 09-18-20, 10:03 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Litespud
You're gone from "virtually unrepairable" to "unrepairable for a price I'm not willing to pay" - slightly different. The are commercial entities that repair Ti frames, so clearly repairing Ti has some economic viability. In any event, I agree that carbon has excellent fatigue resistance (although I'm not sure that I'd take "unlimited" to the bank), and you may be right that steel and Ti will, given enough cycles, ultimately fail. However, I'm pretty sure that, if the elastic limit of the material is not exceeded, a well-made steel or Ti frame will outlive the rider. To my mind, how long the frame survives after that is academic.
Myth: A carbon frame won't last as long as a metal one. Reality: As long as you don't crash hard or take a hammer to the frame, a carbon bike can theoretically last forever. In fact, steel and aluminum last only so long before the metal fatigues and can no longer be used safely, but carbon remains stable indefinitely.Mar 10, 2014
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Old 09-18-20, 12:23 PM
  #134  
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Popeye:
nothing lasts forever. I have seen issues with decay of the potting that rugged electronics are often encapsulated in when exposed to high humidity and temperatures over 65C. So maybe don't store your bike in a hot shed in Alabama?

Please see: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...99802761675511

Abstract

The degradation of an IM7/997 carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy exposed to ultraviolet radiation and/or condensation has been characterized. Based on observations of physical and chemical degradation it has been established that these environments operate in a synergistic manner that causes extensive erosion of the epoxy matrix, resulting in a reduction in mechanical properties. Matrix dominated properties are affected the most, with the transverse tensile strength decreasing by 29% after only 1000 h of cyclic exposure to UV radiation and condensation. While, the longitudinal fiber-dominated properties are not affected for the exposure durations investigated, it has been noted that extensive matrix erosion would ultimately limit effective load transfer to the reinforcing fibers and lead to the deterioration of mechanical properties even along the fiber dominated material direction.
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Old 09-18-20, 03:12 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by popeye
Myth: A carbon frame won't last as long as a metal one. Reality: As long as you don't crash hard or take a hammer to the frame, a carbon bike can theoretically last forever. In fact, steel and aluminum last only so long before the metal fatigues and can no longer be used safely, but carbon remains stable indefinitely.Mar 10, 2014
you might be right. I never argued otherwise. I got into this to counter your assertion that Ti is “virtually unrepairable”, which is plainly incorrect. I have no dog in the “Carbon is forever” fight, as I don’t ride a carbon bike. However, your assertion that carbon can last forever is also a little dodgy, given that no-one’s been around forever to confirm. It certainly might last longer than many folks give it credit for, but that’s really all any of us can say with any certainty
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Old 09-18-20, 05:50 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
Popeye:
nothing lasts forever. I have seen issues with decay of the potting that rugged electronics are often encapsulated in when exposed to high humidity and temperatures over 65C. So maybe don't store your bike in a hot shed in Alabama?

Please see: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...99802761675511

Abstract

The degradation of an IM7/997 carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy exposed to ultraviolet radiation and/or condensation has been characterized. Based on observations of physical and chemical degradation it has been established that these environments operate in a synergistic manner that causes extensive erosion of the epoxy matrix, resulting in a reduction in mechanical properties. Matrix dominated properties are affected the most, with the transverse tensile strength decreasing by 29% after only 1000 h of cyclic exposure to UV radiation and condensation. While, the longitudinal fiber-dominated properties are not affected for the exposure durations investigated, it has been noted that extensive matrix erosion would ultimately limit effective load transfer to the reinforcing fibers and lead to the deterioration of mechanical properties even along the fiber dominated material direction.
To put in simple terms: Your CF bike will ASSPLODE!
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Old 09-18-20, 07:29 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
Popeye:
nothing lasts forever. I have seen issues with decay of the potting that rugged electronics are often encapsulated in when exposed to high humidity and temperatures over 65C. So maybe don't store your bike in a hot shed in Alabama?

Please see: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...99802761675511

Abstract

The degradation of an IM7/997 carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy exposed to ultraviolet radiation and/or condensation has been characterized. Based on observations of physical and chemical degradation it has been established that these environments operate in a synergistic manner that causes extensive erosion of the epoxy matrix, resulting in a reduction in mechanical properties. Matrix dominated properties are affected the most, with the transverse tensile strength decreasing by 29% after only 1000 h of cyclic exposure to UV radiation and condensation. While, the longitudinal fiber-dominated properties are not affected for the exposure durations investigated, it has been noted that extensive matrix erosion would ultimately limit effective load transfer to the reinforcing fibers and lead to the deterioration of mechanical properties even along the fiber dominated material direction.
I looked up 65C. According to my Goggle search that is 149 degrees F.
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Old 09-18-20, 07:49 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by colnago62
I looked up 65C. According to my Goggle search that is 149 degrees F.
Right you are. And I have been in a factory in Alabama where the lights which had over temperature shutdowns set at 65C were blinking off and on. Or under the hood on a dozer. Or a few other places I could mention. My real point is that even though the carbon fiber might last a long time, the goo around it will degrade over time, and most likely heat, humidity, and UV will accelerate that process.

I personally have had a carbon fiber seat post on my trail bike "assplode", and it was not a fun experience. So I replaced that post with a Thompson aluminum post and put the warranty replacement on my road bike, which also has a carbon fiber fork. I have no issue with carbon fiber components. But saying that carbon fiber in an epoxy matrix will "last for ever" sort of is a trigger event.

By the way, if one of my Lynskey frames break, I will send it to them for repair or replacement. My guess is that they can do the repair fairly easily. If my one of my Ritchey bikes breaks, I will take them to the LBS and they will braze or weld them. No doubt there are people who can repair CF stuff, but the complex shape items like most high end frames are probably going in the bin if they break in one of those fancy areas.
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Old 09-18-20, 08:02 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
No doubt there are people who can repair CF stuff, but the complex shape items like most high end frames are probably going in the bin if they break in one of those fancy areas.
You should look up a podcast VeloNews did with Ruckus Composites on how they repair CF. It’s not that complicated. They grind away the affected area, then lay up new CF sheets and cure them. They said there’s little they can’t repair.
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Old 09-18-20, 08:28 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
Popeye:
nothing lasts forever. I have seen issues with decay of the potting that rugged electronics are often encapsulated in when exposed to high humidity and temperatures over 65C. So maybe don't store your bike in a hot shed in Alabama?

Please see: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...99802761675511

Abstract

The degradation of an IM7/997 carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy exposed to ultraviolet radiation and/or condensation has been characterized. Based on observations of physical and chemical degradation it has been established that these environments operate in a synergistic manner that causes extensive erosion of the epoxy matrix, resulting in a reduction in mechanical properties. Matrix dominated properties are affected the most, with the transverse tensile strength decreasing by 29% after only 1000 h of cyclic exposure to UV radiation and condensation. While, the longitudinal fiber-dominated properties are not affected for the exposure durations investigated, it has been noted that extensive matrix erosion would ultimately limit effective load transfer to the reinforcing fibers and lead to the deterioration of mechanical properties even along the fiber dominated material direction.
Oh stop. https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...on-in-the-sun/
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Old 09-19-20, 11:38 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
Right you are. And I have been in a factory in Alabama where the lights which had over temperature shutdowns set at 65C were blinking off and on. Or under the hood on a dozer. Or a few other places I could mention. My real point is that even though the carbon fiber might last a long time, the goo around it will degrade over time, and most likely heat, humidity, and UV will accelerate that process.
I wonder how many cyclists actually expose their frames to those kind of conditions?
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Old 09-19-20, 11:55 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Litespud
I'm not sure that I would pay to have a Ti Motobecane repaired either. However, if I trashed my Litespeed, I would give serious consideration to having it repaired, as long as the price didn't exceed the cost of a replacement.
Why do you think Moto is not worth fixing while Litespeed is? A genuine question. One of my bikes is Ti Moto and I like how it looks and how it rides. I've never tried Litespeed though.
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Old 09-19-20, 03:03 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by tankist
Why do you think Moto is not worth fixing while Litespeed is? A genuine question. One of my bikes is Ti Moto and I like how it looks and how it rides. I've never tried Litespeed though.
Not crapping on Motobecane specifically, but I always thought that they were at the budget end of the market, so might not be an economically viable repair. Litespeeds are simply more costly. That being said, I fully accept that the decision to repair vs simply replace doesn't always come down to dollars and cents. My LS Vortex is 20 years old, and as a used frame, isn't worth that much in strict monetary terms, and I imagine that many folks would not consider it worth repairing. However, this particular LS ( MY2000) was my dream bike when I bought it, and remains so. It fits me like a glove and it's a great all-day ride. But they're hard to find. I occasionally check eBay to see what's out there, in the event that mine was stolen or trashed beyond repair, and the equivalent frame/bike (size, MY, model) appears very rarely. So I have to factor in not just the replacement cost, but the ability to replace into the "replace vs repair" decision. I have no idea how high the repair cost would have to go to convince me to cut my losses and replace, but given that the only frame I would replace it with would be an identical LS (hard to find) or something like a Colnago Master (~$3k), it would be bloody high.
As to your last comment, Litespeeds remain well-made Ti frames, although I don't know that they have the cachet that they once had when Litespeed was an independent company (mine was made at the tail end of the transition). There's a thread here somewhere entitled "My Litespeed Classic" or something like that, and all these people came out of the woodwork for no other reason than to show off their old LSs - a great thread. However, if I were in the market for a new Ti frame, I'd probably look at Lynskey (the original owners of Litespeed) first.

Last edited by Litespud; 09-19-20 at 03:37 PM.
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