DrIsotope

My chain life is basically the same regardless of what lubricant is used. Before switching to wax, I tried over a dozen different wet and dry lubes. They all do the same thing, which is turn the drivetrain into a hideous mess that requires a full degreasing several times a year. With wax, I don't mess with anything but the chains themselves. Even if the chains were to wear out 25% faster, I'd still be saving time, effort, and solvent. And wax is so clean. So, so clean.

woodcraft

Let's try this in a slightly different context:

A cheap ​​​​​​ball bearing that wears out quickly is apparently made with softer steel either at the ball or races, or both. It doesn't correlate to more friction or a loss of power, just soft metal.

I doubt that Friction Facts would buy this idea.

woodcraft

I hear you. I guess by my theory, if you get the same life with different lubes, you also get roughly the same friction losses.

eduskator

I hear you! Stefane's research (Oz Cycle) have however proven that wax = less wear (video with chart & stats can be found on in YT channel). Who's right, who's wrong?

jadocs

Yeah, I was just going to mention his test video. He did a pretty good job with the test parameters IMO, kind of hard to dispute his findings. Either way chain life is a secondary benefit to me. My primary was equal or better performance and keeping the drivetrain clean.

aclass

^^ this ^^

jadocs

15000km (metric), see his test and results here:


All things being equal (i.e. shifting performance), initial flaking is really no concern to me. a soft brush takes care of that very easily. Any wet lube regardless of how sparingly it is applied is going to attract dirt. Dirt in turn is going to cause wear which requires degreasing/cleaning.

WhyFi

I've been lurking on waxing threads and these are my primary interests - the gunk picked up on my roads is just too much and I'm tired of cleaning it all the time. At this point, I've decided to move forward - Target has 2qt Crock Pots for 10 measly bucks and I've ordered a pound of Molten Speed Wax for $17 (I figure it's a good way to dip my toes without the faff of full-on homebrew the first time around). I've got one low-mileage chain ready to go and just installed a new chain for a short break-in before cleaning and waxing the both of 'em next week (hopefully).

jadocs

WhyFi

Check our his test in the video I linked. It has a direct comparison to MSW.

I did the same, got a $9 crock pot from Walmart, except I purchased 2lbs of Paraffin of eBay for $11. You can still get PTFE from AliExpress (100 grams for $14 and change).

WhyFi

Yeah, it just seemed like people were waiting a bit on PTFE deliveries (at least for stuff in the 1.6 micron range) and I'm impatient to get started. Once I get up and running, I expect that I'll go the homebrew route, it seems economical and easy enough, but I'll be able to place orders well in advance of needing them.

eduskator

Yup... Ordered mine Jan 22, it shipped Feb 12, and I still haven't received it. Oh well, still lots of snow left outside, and at least 2 months until roads get cleared & cleaned!

COVID-19 for the win!

woodcraft

Looks like the chains used in the OZ test last about 50% longer (according to Connex) than those used by DrIsotope, so there's that...

DrIsotope

If it weren't out of stock pretty much globally, the Connex 11sX would still average around $60 online (before tax and shipping) compared to the $15 per chain I pay for PC-1110s.

So no matter how you shake it, the Connex is still the most expensive per mile. If you don't want bargain basement, there are plenty of eBay sellers with the Shimano HG901 for $25 shipped.

For me to even consider Wippermann/Connex again, the chain prices have to drop about 30%.

woodcraft

Oz used the Connex 11s0- $40 on Amazon,

but your cost/mile still comes out better,

& apparently no weight weenie, watt weenie, or fashion weenie issues are triggered.

eduskator

Man, I miss being young & not caring about my stuff as long as it worked. Nowadays, we discuss the chemistry of lubricant & how to save a few pennies out of a 20 bucks chain. Things were so easy back then

August West

Exactly. In the big picture for me, chain price is pretty irrelevant, having a nice clean drive train that doesn't get sludge all over me every time I get near it is priceless.

sdmc530

this is why I wax. Wife is much happier about these traits for in house bike storage.
Price is irrelevant for this happy wife syndrome.

DaveSSS 

A liquid lube made of paraffin dissolved in naphtha will become pure paraffin when the solvent evaporates, so it is not a wet lube. Oz often mixes paraffin with paraffin oil, that either does not evaporate or evaporates at an incredibly low rate. Naphtha is the fastest evaporating solvent that will dissolve paraffin at room temperature, that I know of. Isopropyl alcohol containing 10-30% water or xylene are not appropriate.

jadocs

Yeah, Oz's approach has been evolving and he stopped mixing the Paraffin with Paraffin Oil. Thanks for the info about Naphtha, although when I look it up Google says it's a flammable oil. If it evaporates completely and does not leave any residue or film, I could see this being viable.

eduskator

I did ask him a few weeks ago why he had stopped using the 1:1 Wax & Oil mix and opted for the 10:1 Wax & PTFE mix instead, and he only replied that the PTFE replaced the oil (in other words, he did not respond to my question).

In the video (2017 I believe) where he had shared the Wax & Oil mix, I remember he had mentioned that oil was used to make the mix thinner so more could get inside the chain links, so I was kind of confused after reading his response.

Anyways, it seems like the 10:1 Wax & PTFE mix works just fine.

DaveSSS 

Products sold as wax and grease remover to prepare cars for painting are made of a mixture of naphtha and mineral spirits. The more naphtha, the faster it dries after wiping down the area to be painted. I've used pure naphtha, sold as a paint thinner for this purpose. It would not work, if it left an oily residue.

Sy Reene

Just curious.. water evaporates, so why wouldn't eg. Isopropyl alcohol work..Also, not hard to find eg. Swan 99% Isopropyl? Asking because I just got a bottle of Pedro's slick wax which is referenced as using a fast evaporating alcohol carrier

https://pedros.com/faqs/differences-slick-wax-ice-wax/

DaveSSS 

I'm not a chemical engineer, so I can only comment, based on my own experiments. Common alcohols include ethanol, methanol and isopropyl. If the alcohol will not dissolve paraffin at room temperature, it won't work to convert paraffin into a liquid. Naphtha will dissolve paraffin at 65-75 degrees, but the amount of solvent needed increases as the temperature decreases. If only 3 or 4 parts of naphtha are used to one part paraffin, it will require a small amount of warming to be fully transparent with a water like viscosity at 65-70 degrees.

Try your own experiments. See if you can dissolve paraffin with any of the alcohols.

Also keep in mind that not all wax is paraffin. I'm sure that other waxes exist that can be made into a chain lube, but they don't cost pennies per ounce like home made wax lube.

canklecat

He gets the same question so often he probably replies to only a few.

He said the oil only attracts grime without adding any benefit.

For now, at least, he's hot on the melted wax and PTFE powder. Until further notice.

Basically he's just rehashing the research done by the folks at Friction Facts/Ceramic Speed a few years ago, and putting it into videos for folks who find it easier to learn from watching than reading.

And in his most recent video he's reinventing Rock 'N' Roll Absolute Dry (which appears to be PTFE power in naptha) and White Lightning Easy Lube (paraffin in naptha), but with the wrong solvent -- he used isopropyl alcohol rather than naptha. He posted tips for making a portable liquefied lube, but it's pointless and less effective than buying readymade stuff. And he says it'll be necessary to strip the chain again if you resume hot waxing.

So I'll just keep using Rock 'N' Roll Absolute Dry when I don't have the time to set up the crock pot for melted paraffin. Since January I've had to have some overdue maintenance done on my apartment, including completely reflooring it, so I put away most of my bike maintenance gear until the work is finished. I tried RnR Absolute Dry and it performs exactly as claimed, good and not-so-good. It's very slick and smooth, not fussy about application, runs cleaner than most wet application lubes (not as clean as hot wax), but does need to be reapplied often and is pricey for what you get -- PTFE in naptha. So I might try homebrewing my own. I already have the PTFE powder. So I might just try adding my own naptha and see how it goes.

The problem I had with White Lightning Easy Lube is most of the wax was wasted and couldn't be recovered, and ended up clogging the chain and cogs with gummy wax boogers. I had to floss the freewheels and cassettes, and ended up tossing out a chain rather than trying to clean each link with a Q-tip or stiff brush.

Reportedly Boeshield T9 is also paraffin in solvent, but it's not naptha and Boeshield doesn't reveal what the solvent is. It's very thin but seems tenacious. It can be applied to run as cleanly as melted wax, but it should be applied to a chain off the bike, wait for the Boeshield to dry, then put the chain on the bike. Too much trouble, so I use the T9 mostly as a penetrating lube for other stuff, like old oxidized cables/housings, derailleurs, etc.

redlude97

I just use molten speed wax $20/bag which lasts hundreds of chains, and rotate 3 chains per bike, and Squirt in a pinch topping off a bike that I don't have time to swap a chain onto. If you don't use it multiple applications in a row it doesn't gum up like some people experience and I can wipe off the excess with a MF napped cloth pretty easily. Then swap for a new chain. I do restart each chain with 3x mineral solvent baths in batches of ~6-8 chains at a time so it goes pretty fast