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Old 02-07-18, 05:52 AM
  #4826  
Morelock
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I always ride red shimano cleats. Easy way to get them "right" is to jump on the trainer with the cleats only semi-snugged down. (enough that they don't freely move, but that there is still the possibility of movement in them.) Then spin for about 10-15 minutes. Your foot will find where it wants to be... then have significant other/friend/somebody take a silver sharpie and mark where the cleats end up. Get off and line them back up, tighten down.

We used to fit people's cleats using the RAD cleat alignment system... then we realized this method did the same thing with less expensive equipment.

I moved to Speedplay aero zero's recently... still having a hard time with the inherent float in them (even when the bolts are tightened down to 0 float, they still move way more than my shimanos) and they are much more annoying to set up.

As for aero cranks... at low yaw like you see on track, there likely isn't much measurable benefit. The cheaper option that allows you to run a wider (arguably nicer) variety of cranks is just to buy some aero chainrings.
Zen/FSA/Aerocoach/etc aero rings on my SRM science is basically a flat piece, and I don't have to put up with a Rotor/FSA crank/bb
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Old 02-08-18, 11:34 PM
  #4827  
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Originally Posted by brawlo
Float. I had this discussion with my bike fitter who is very very good with all this stuff when I turned up for my custom frame fit with fixed cleats.
Brawlo, are you a sprinter? Is your fitter familiar with the needs of track sprinters? How are standing starts with the float for you?
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Old 02-08-18, 11:37 PM
  #4828  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
i by and large agree. my entry in this conversation is this: it depends on how much of The Princess And The Pea you are. I know that if I used no-float cleats, I'd constantly be tinkering with my cleat position and it would make me unhappy. Whereas with cleats with float, it's a lot easier to get it in the ballpark.

I don't move my feet when I'm clipped in - I don't really take advantage of the float. It's not like it leaves you feeling all loosey-goosey. But if gives you some wiggle room to find that perfect foot/knee/hip position in your stroke.
This is kinda what I'm wondering about. More backstory, I had a knee injury that required surgery when I was a junior and since then the corresponding foot is never completely happy with whatever position it's locked into. I'm wondering if float might help this foot find it's ideal position, and I'm also wondering if there is really just one perfect position or for a semi-wonky leg.
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Old 02-09-18, 12:11 AM
  #4829  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke
Brawlo, are you a sprinter? Is your fitter familiar with the needs of track sprinters? How are standing starts with the float for you?
My fitter is very familiar with the requirements of a sprinter and was a high level (enduro) track racer in his day. Standing starts with the float are absolutely fine. I have never ever pulled a foot. That includes countless bike standing starts in racing and training before I adopted straps. That also includes thousands of trainer starts with a Kurt Kinetic and more recently a Kickr. When I was fitted for my custom frame, the fitter used the Retul system. You can see in real time the various movements and tracking that body parts take as you pedal. My fitter is of the opinion (very well backed by science and experience) that the only time a fixed cleat should be used is when the position is perfectly dialed in, and only then if the rider's pedaling action will accommodate the fixed position via a very linear and smooth action.

I'm a relative gumby in this game. I believe everyone is different and I am just passing on the wisdom of someone that has a mountain of experience more than me.
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Old 02-09-18, 05:44 AM
  #4830  
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Cool, great info, thanks Brawlo!
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Old 02-10-18, 06:44 AM
  #4831  
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If the spider on the Rotor’s is bolted on like their road cranks then I’d put that purely down to user error and not tightening the bolt enough.
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Old 02-10-18, 10:14 AM
  #4832  
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Still worthy of consideration as a potential weak spot in the crankset either way if you’re thinking about a purchase, the torque being thrown down by some of the big guys is going to find any weak link pretty quick!
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Old 02-10-18, 10:57 AM
  #4833  
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Originally Posted by Monkeyfudger
If the spider on the Rotor’s is bolted on like their road cranks then I’d put that purely down to user error and not tightening the bolt enough.
I have a Rotor/P2Max Track crank (uses the Road 3D arms). The Spider fits over a spline on the drive side arm and is held in place by a lock ring. Common assembly method used on other cranks, for example Cannondale Hollowgram.
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Old 02-10-18, 11:08 AM
  #4834  
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Yeah I’ve got a couple on different road bikes, weirdly enough with P2M as well

I’ve always been curious whether the axle is the same length as the road cranks as the online blurb seems to suggest that it’s the BB that’s track specific? Have you ever compared it to a road crankset?
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Old 02-10-18, 11:58 AM
  #4835  
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Sorry...search function doesn’t really like me...

Is anyone using the TA Specialties track rings? I fancy just trying to calm my cadence down half a click, are these ok or should I pony up to a Campag chain ring for too much more?

Wiggle | TA 144 PCD Shimano/Campag Track Chainring (50-52T) | Chainrings
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Old 02-10-18, 01:22 PM
  #4836  
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I haven't heard anything bad about the TA rings. I think I might have had one back in the day.
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Old 02-11-18, 08:44 AM
  #4837  
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Originally Posted by Monkeyfudger
Yeah I’ve got a couple on different road bikes, weirdly enough with P2M as well

I’ve always been curious whether the axle is the same length as the road cranks as the online blurb seems to suggest that it’s the BB that’s track specific? Have you ever compared it to a road crankset?
It's the only 3D crank I've owned so I don't really have a comparison point. My understanding was that P2M based this on the road crank. I don't think it's up on their site any longer but in the specs they stated that this had the wider Road Q-Factor not the track. I use a Rotor BB1 (Road) bottom bracket.

It's a very consistent meter, gives me numbers that make sense compared to the SRM on my Road bike. But it has a flaw. There is a huge (2 sec +) delay in the rpm. It's very noticeable when doing accelerations, peak rpm will show up 2 to 3 data blocks after peak speed. I discussed this with P2M & it has to do with how they handle signal from the accelerometer used for rpm. Not an issue for enduro work but for a sprinter looking at peaks or acceleration it might be problematic.

I recall the story mentioned about the exploding crank, I think it was @Morelock ?
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Old 02-11-18, 11:14 AM
  #4838  
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not me, I've yet to have the pleasure of an exploding crank yet

my stages is the same way with the delay. When I hooked it up with my (wired) SRM together, it was like night and day difference.
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Old 02-11-18, 01:48 PM
  #4839  
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Video Cinema-Like Goggles for Rouvy, BKOOL, ZWIFT, etc

Is anyone using video goggles while on their trainers with Rouvy, BKOOL, or ZWIFT? I see there is now an explosion of them on the market, from $125-$800. I'm not particularly interested in the 3D features, but basically replacing my flat screen monitor in front of me with goggles, so 2D is fine. It's basically what they call the cinema movie experience via the goggles. I am really interested in going this direction, vs. buying a 100" flatscreen monitor just for bike training. I also see there are a ton of these out there that don't require putting your phone inside of them...that's the kind I'm looking for. I'm seeing several that would work, and do not require proprietary software, and basically will connect to your phone or computer via HDMI.

Thoughts? Experiences? Would be super fun with BKOOL's simulated velodromes.
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Old 02-11-18, 02:25 PM
  #4840  
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Surely it would get far too hot - it would be sealed to face so no airflow and having screens close making it even hotter. Im a pretty heavy sweater when exercising and it would take about only a couple of minutes for sweat to start dripping in my eyes - but i wouldnt be able to wipe it away because the goggles are there. Sounds quite unpleasant!
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Old 02-11-18, 03:10 PM
  #4841  
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Originally Posted by zizou
Surely it would get far too hot - it would be sealed to face so no airflow and having screens close making it even hotter. Im a pretty heavy sweater when exercising and it would take about only a couple of minutes for sweat to start dripping in my eyes - but i wouldnt be able to wipe it away because the goggles are there. Sounds quite unpleasant!
The sweat factor would definitely be a factor. I supposed it depends on how narrow the inside eye pieces are...given your eyeballs don't sweat, smaller pieces may not be a problem. I'd say the goggles out there that look more like sun glasses, vs. snorkeling goggles would be better.
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Old 02-11-18, 09:38 PM
  #4842  
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Fuji Track Pro 2009 Seat Mast

Hey guys, I have a fuji track pro 2009 and my seat mast has been broken for a while now and I have searched far and wide for one. No one seems to have one ANYwhere. If there is anything that might work for it please let me know ASAP and I am willing to also use a regular aero seat post if there is one that fits for the FTP 09. Thanks, Aiden
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Old 02-11-18, 10:52 PM
  #4843  
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Originally Posted by fixedmystic
Hey guys, I have a fuji track pro 2009 and my seat mast has been broken for a while now and I have searched far and wide for one. No one seems to have one ANYwhere. If there is anything that might work for it please let me know ASAP and I am willing to also use a regular aero seat post if there is one that fits for the FTP 09. Thanks, Aiden
Well, if your bike has a SEAT MAST, then you won't be able to use a seat post. Is it the mast that is broken, or just the topper?
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Old 02-11-18, 10:57 PM
  #4844  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung
...It's basically what they call the cinema movie experience via the goggles. I am really interested in going this direction, vs. buying a 100" flatscreen monitor just for bike training...
Surely you haven't narrowed your options down to just these two

You don't have to buy everything they tell you to buy


Originally Posted by fixedmystic
Hey guys, I have a fuji track pro 2009 and my seat mast has been broken for a while now and I have searched far and wide for one. No one seems to have one ANYwhere. If there is anything that might work for it please let me know ASAP and I am willing to also use a regular aero seat post if there is one that fits for the FTP 09. Thanks, Aiden
That frame is 9 years old and it didn't have a great seat post/mast system to begin with.

Might I suggest that you cut your losses and simply look for a modern frame, preferably one that uses a standard round seatpost that you can get from a local shop for this very reason. I know what it's like to hunt for things like this and it usually ends in frustration.
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Old 02-11-18, 11:31 PM
  #4845  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Surely you haven't narrowed your options down to just these two

You don't have to buy everything they tell you to buy
Right. :-) Well since I don't do anything but go to work, train, race, and sleep, I get bored and experiment with technology. I found two prospects, a little more pricey, but not the giant snorkel sweat-fest goggles. These are like slightly larger and heavy sun glasses, but basically project, inside the glasses, the equivalent of a 90" screen at 10 feet.

Also see that someone has come out with glasses for road racers that show sensor metrics. I think that's awesome, actually. I have no doubt we'll see these in the TDF in the next year or so. With my bad eyesight, I'd much rather prefer having my power, speed, etc, shown in my TT helmet visor than on a tiny bike computer. Right now the virtual display goggles and glasses are being designed mainly for the entertainment and gaming industry. Zwift already has the coding in their platform to support 3D projection of their software into glasses. It is only a matter of time before someone designs and markets a virtual display headset for athletes. This is not meant to replace the outdoor riding and racing experience, for me at least, but to enhance my indoor training experience when I can't ride outdoors, and get it to be more realistic -- because 7-10 hours on a trainer during the winter tends to get monotonous. Plus it's freakin' cool! Imagine having the BKOOL velodrome simulator bigger than life inside a set of glasses....like TRON, for anyone old enough here to remember that movie.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:00 PM
  #4846  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung
Thoughts? Experiences? Would be super fun with BKOOL's simulated velodromes.
Have you tried Bkool yet? Admittedly I had to cut back the quality because my internet is so crap, but I found it to be quite a bland experience, especially the velodrome. I had high hopes, but unless they've picked up their game, I wouldn't bother. I used it last year around May/June. You just ride around the black line. There was keirin racing, but you had to have at least 4 other riders available to do that. With such a small rider base, unless you had some friends scheduled in, there was nothing to do on the velo besides TT stuff or endless laps. I really hope it has gotten better, as there was a lot of promise in what they had.

Originally Posted by Monkeyfudger
Sorry...search function doesn’t really like me...

Is anyone using the TA Specialties track rings? I fancy just trying to calm my cadence down half a click, are these ok or should I pony up to a Campag chain ring for too much more?

Wiggle | TA 144 PCD Shimano/Campag Track Chainring (50-52T) | Chainrings
These days, with modern CNC machining, there really aren't any more excuses for out of round chainrings. So the biggest differences should come from the chainring materials, but I would say even a cheap ring will last a long time under normal track use conditions. I honestly don't believe that the "name" rings deserve their high prices any more besides their bling factor. There are so many offerings out there from so many makers that come in at $100 or better
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Old 02-12-18, 04:20 PM
  #4847  
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Originally Posted by brawlo
Have you tried Bkool yet? Admittedly I had to cut back the quality because my internet is so crap, but I found it to be quite a bland experience, especially the velodrome. I had high hopes, but unless they've picked up their game, I wouldn't bother. I used it last year around May/June. You just ride around the black line. There was keirin racing, but you had to have at least 4 other riders available to do that. With such a small rider base, unless you had some friends scheduled in, there was nothing to do on the velo besides TT stuff or endless laps. I really hope it has gotten better, as there was a lot of promise in what they had.
I've been using BKOOL for about 3 months now, and love it. I don't use the Velodrome much, except to do VO2max intervals on the 1K. It's basically just something else to look at besides a bunch of intervals bars on the screen. What like most is the simulated rides, and the fact that I can upload my own past rides and time trial races and do simulated versions of them. It's a great way to prep for a course, and I like the avatars much more than Zwift's. It's Zwift that I find completely boring, stuck with the same islands and loops, vs, the thousands of routes on BKOOL both simulated and video. However, I do switch back and forth between BKOOL and Rouvy (used to be Virtual Training). I've been using that program for over a year, and I use it mainly for interval training. BKOOL's program for building workouts is buggy and a pain to use.

I'm just now entering the threshold phase of my training for the new season, so I may start jumping on BKOOL more now to see if I can attract some others to the Velodrome.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:52 PM
  #4848  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung
I've been using BKOOL for about 3 months now, and love it. I don't use the Velodrome much, except to do VO2max intervals on the 1K. It's basically just something else to look at besides a bunch of intervals bars on the screen. What like most is the simulated rides, and the fact that I can upload my own past rides and time trial races and do simulated versions of them. It's a great way to prep for a course, and I like the avatars much more than Zwift's. It's Zwift that I find completely boring, stuck with the same islands and loops, vs, the thousands of routes on BKOOL both simulated and video. However, I do switch back and forth between BKOOL and Rouvy (used to be Virtual Training). I've been using that program for over a year, and I use it mainly for interval training. BKOOL's program for building workouts is buggy and a pain to use.

I'm just now entering the threshold phase of my training for the new season, so I may start jumping on BKOOL more now to see if I can attract some others to the Velodrome.
Sounds good. I was really pumped with what Bkool offered and down here in the deep deep southern hemisphere Aussies were offered Bkool for free until the end of 2017. I quickly found that my internet was far too crap to enjoy the experience for what it could have been. The only graphic level that worked was the basic.....sooooo disappointing. I ended up going back to zwift for the winter
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Old 02-14-18, 07:44 PM
  #4849  
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Are clinchers still considered "unsafe" for track riding/racing?

I've heard that "tubulars are safer" and "you'll roll a clincher" (knock wood) since I started in the sport. But I've never seen or heard of a clincher rolling off of rim. I've seen video of a few tubulars rolling off (likely due to user error). I've seen punctures with both styles of tires and riders handled them no differently.

Clinchers are used at the highest levels of the sport. There are countless photos of top tier elites training on Mavic Ellipse clincher wheels, unless there is a tubular variant that I'm not aware of.

So, is the advice against clinchers still valid? Maybe clinchers used to be worse but not so much anymore?




On a related note: It seems that the Campy Pista wheels could be considered a tubular version of the Ellipse. Similar rim depth, bladed spokes, spoke count, etc... but yet they are not nearly as popular. They are about 50% more expensive. I can't say that I've ever seen any elites riding them (in person or photos) and I've only seen 1 set in the wild in general.
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Old 02-14-18, 09:28 PM
  #4850  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Are clinchers still considered "unsafe" for track riding/racing?

I've heard that "tubulars are safer" and "you'll roll a clincher" (knock wood) since I started in the sport. But I've never seen or heard of a clincher rolling off of rim. I've seen video of a few tubulars rolling off (likely due to user error). I've seen punctures with both styles of tires and riders handled them no differently.

Clinchers are used at the highest levels of the sport. There are countless photos of top tier elites training on Mavic Ellipse clincher wheels, unless there is a tubular variant that I'm not aware of.

So, is the advice against clinchers still valid? Maybe clinchers used to be worse but not so much anymore?




On a related note: It seems that the Campy Pista wheels could be considered a tubular version of the Ellipse. Similar rim depth, bladed spokes, spoke count, etc... but yet they are not nearly as popular. They are about 50% more expensive. I can't say that I've ever seen any elites riding them (in person or photos) and I've only seen 1 set in the wild in general.
The only hazard/warning I've heard re. clincher safety is to take the valve nut off as if you roll a tyre, it canruin your rim.
Practically everyone I ride with trains on clinchers, either Ellipse or Miche Pistard and I haven't seen or heard anything negative. Anecdotal, but I punctured my rear clincher on an outdoor/concrete velodrome halfway through an effort and still managed to stay upright, so it didn't seem any different to a tub puncturing. When I was in Japan, I saw the national team and Perkins/Dmitriev training on clinchers as well, so I'm guessing if it's good enough for them...

Another alternative to the Campy Pista is the Miche Pistard tubular variant. Not quite as aero as the Ellipse/Pista but bomb proof and a very solid training wheel. Super affordable as well.
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