MikeinFL

I haven't purchased anything yet as I'm still researching. I'm considering a BBS02 mid-drive and a rep at a Bafang dealer said that when the power is off there IS some pedal resistance, unlike a geared hub that has no resistance.

Is that true? I keep finding blogs and sales pitches that the BBS02: "There is no resistance from the motor with power off"

DOES the BBS02 have pedal resistance when powered off?

Nelson37

If you are coasting without pedaling, no. If you are pedaling while not using any motor power, yes.

The primary advantage of a crank drive is the ability to drive thru the gears for climbing hills.

The disadvantages are higher price, increased wear on chain and gearset due to much higher power levels than design spec, the above mentioned pedaling drag, and a more complicated install requiring some specialized tools. Also, a lot of shifting.

For the flat ground of Florida, seems hard to justify.

The Cute 100 that Chas suggested is similar to what I use, and would seem to satisfy your needs well. Picking the right RPM us next choice, there is some excellent info on his build thread including a detail that is rarely mentioned. Keep in mind that Chas is a Very Strong pedaler.

Doc_Wui

With the chain removed on a BBS02. Pedals spin for a few seconds. On a regular bike, they would spin for tens of seconds. There's drag, but only a select few cyclists would notice. With some variations in the units, some spin more free than others.

With a geared hub motor, if you try to turn the axle with fingers, you find it hard. Spin the wheel on the bike. It will spin for 10 seconds. A regular wheel might spin for a minute. Again, there is drag, but only a super biker on a 15 pound bike feels it.

Here's video on the BBSO2 with chain removed. When PAS is set to one, spinning the pedals kicked in the motor.

MikeinFL

Thanks for the replies, really helps.

After researching mid-drives for the last few days I think a geared hub will be fine for me on flat FL roads. I test rode a 36v front hub the other day, an E-bike kit on an Electra cruiser, and I was surprise it got up to 30mph.

So at this point I've decided on a 36v 500w geared hub and rear rack battery. That will provide all the PAS and throttle I would need. That's going to add about 20lbs total and that's ok.

With a hub on the rear and battery on the rack, all the extra weight is all on the back wheel. Not ideal balance, so I prefer to use a front hub. So at this point I'm thinking of a front hub even though I have a suntour suspension fork. I've read motor hubs on suspension forks are not recommended, so I'll get a new fork. On a rigid fork I've gotten the impression this is ok up to a 500w hub if you use good thick torque arms, ebikeschool.com says:

"If you have a 500 watt motor in the front, especially if you have an aluminum fork, you’ll want to use a torque arm."

Also the longer (3") and thicker torque arms are the best. So apparently Grin tech makes the best so I will use at least one and two if will fit.

chas58

With.

From bmsbattery, elifebike, or greenbikekit.

MikeinFL

are not those in China? Which did you buy from? How smooth the transaction, shipping, etc?

w ow fast will Q100 go at 36v? 700c

MikeinFL

someone on ebay selling a kit with a "Bistro USA Motor" made in Detroit?

WilliamT

I had the same setup, front geared hub on a suntour aluminum suspension fork and a rear rack battery. I used a 350w with one torque arm. At that time, I dug around and found out that these motors generally produced 32-36 Nm so I was comfortable with just a single torque arm. In fact, I probably didn't even need one but added it anyways just to be safe.

Current 350w-500w geared hubs claim 60-80 Nm of torque. A single Grin torque arm can provide up to 90 Nm of resistance (that includes lug nut tighten to 60 Nm) and having 2 should provide up to 150 Nm of resistance. On an aluminum fork with the current specs, I would definitely get 2 torque arms. That way, if there is any axle spinout and the fork cracks, the torque arms will keep the wheel in place so you don't get into trouble.

At 80 Nm, I would probably put 2 torque arms on steel forks too. The steel forks won't crack but will bend causing the axle to rotate. That's a lot safer because the wheel will still be on the forks.

(In all honesty, your not likely going to hit the peak unless you hit max throttle to get going from a stop. If you don't throttle and get going with the pedal assist, the torque is going to gradually increase. That said, I still recommend putting on the torque arms.)

MikeinFL

thanks, did the front suspension cause any front wheel wiggle/vibration? or was it steady all the way. What was your top speed with the 350?

I'm thinking of a 36v 500watt on the front with torque arm.

WilliamT

No, it was steady all the way. Throttle alone on a bike stand it was 24 mph. Real world test with me (145lb)+45lb bike (with kit) on Level 3/5 assist was 18 mph with relatively easy pedaling. Level 4 probably around 20 mph with pedaling.

A 500 watt should probably put you around 25-28 mph with moderate assist + pedaling. If your doing aluminum forks, I would get 2 Grin torque arms. If you go the steel fork route, I would still get 1 just to protect your forks from getting stretched from any possible axle rotation.

Nelson37

Never heard of "Bistro" and there are virtually Zero US made motors.
Germany, Switzerland, India if Falco is still operating, and 95% or so from China.

Wattage ratings do NOT equate to speed. They rate to the total Volts x Amps the motor can continuously run without melting.

The 350W Q100 is available in models that will, in a 700c wheel, do 15mph, 18mph, or 22 mph, roughly, at 36 Volts, all at the same wattage rating. Increase voltage and speed increases in a direct relationship less about 10% for additional friction losses.

Strongly recommend checking out an ebike simulator and running SEVERAL different combinations. Major levels of understanding there.

Speed is traded for climbing torque and acceleration. If you are on flat ground, and If you intend to pedal on acceleration to a minimum of one-half or more of the motor's top speed, then the higher-speed motor can be a viable choice, keeping weight down. Weight and wattage are not so directly related as voltage and speed, but increase the wattage and you increase the weight.

You will Absolutely need to increase the pedal gearing, dramatically. Using a front-mount opens up additional options. Sturmey-Archer has a new 5-speed IGH at reasonable price, which can yield the equivalent of an 8-tooth gear while running on a 16 tooth actual cog.

Again, Chas58's build thread really goes over the lightweight, hi-speed motor options in great detail. Go to Endless-Sphere search for and read it. I am nowhere near his class pedaling, BUT - many ebikers are not much interested in strong pedaling At All.

Doc_Wui

I like the Q100H motors. I put them on my 20" folders. Around 18 mph on 36V, which is a good speed for that size bike, about as fast as one could pedal them.

I think the Q128H might be a better choice for the average rider. A bit larger, but more like a 500W motor. A bare motor is about $145 shipped from BMSbattery.com (only source), as is the Q100H. A wheel kit is about $265 shipped to the USA, so I chose to spoke my Q100H myself and save a little money.

If you buy either, I would get the 201 rpm versions in 36V, if you plan to use 36V. On my last visit to ebikeling.com, he had a pop-up saying new stocks would be in soon. You might give it a week or two.

MikeinFL

found it, very useful!

MikeinFL

About your "1990 chrome-moly steel Trek 850 with a 500W 36 volt geared rear hub... Motor and battery under $500 from ebay." Remember who on ebay? one eaby place or two different ones?

Doc_Wui

Elifebike.com (now PSWpower.com) is a chinese vendor that used to sell on ebay. I bought their 36V 10AH Dolphin for $280 shipped in August 2015. The $200 motor kit was from ebikeling on ebay, one if two kits I bought from him. He is in the Chicago burbs, although I never called him, and I suppose he stocks up on kits every few months. I doubt this is anything more than a small sideline business. HE can't make much on a $200 kit.

The battery uses unknown chinese cells. I haven't been too concerned about it. My usual ride is 20 miles and the battery display says I have half left, but it's probably 1/3 left.

MikeinFL

using the simulator, the Q100 would be ok for me. The only place to order one is from China? If I order a kit will they ship a charger with correct USA power plug prong? Not EU prong?

Nelson37

If you order from BMSBattery, AND IF you also order a charger, there are reasonably good odds you will receive a charger. SFAIK there is a place to specify US wall plug, there is also a place to make a note that you need US standard electrical connection.

If you just order a kit with a battery, then unless the charger is specifically included, you won't get one. Ignore the pictures, read carefully.

You must be very careful to specify which speed of Q100 you want, AT A PARTICULAR VOLTAGE. Also, if you order the motor built into a 700C wheel, and you order a high-speed motor, be specific in the notes or you will receive a lower speed motor.

Also, motor in wheel increases shipping costs due to oversize package, plus, it is a crappy rim with crappy spokes from China. Check local wheel building charges, usually cost difference is minimal and you get a good quality wheel, spokes, and build job, instead of something different.

Keep track of time window on Paypal and if no VERIFIED, US-BASED tracking number on package by end of window, cancel transaction with Paypal. BMSBattery-supplied "tracking number" not acceptable. If notify BMS of intent to cancel in advance, action usually occurs. However, do NOT allow time limit to expire.

Last year or two they have gotten both more reliable and faster, according to user reports. Fun Fact - BMS stands for Blue My Sky.

They do have VERY competitive pricing.

MikeinFL

thanks for that

I've finally decided what I want in a kit!

recap:
bike+me = 97.79kg (215.6 lbs). Hybrid 700c. V brakes. 21 speed.
I estimate the new hub wheel and battery will add about 20 lbs = 106.kg total

I want to:
- often ride without power so low weight geared hub is better
- speed up to 20mph at least
- the option to easily remove the battery to reduce weight to ride without power
- I often ride on sidewalk (have to sometimes because of few bike lanes)
- mostly short store runs nearby, up to 5-15 miles round way
- no long commuting
- eventually make my own battery packs and use good battery charger, etc.

My questions:
Is it easy it quick and easy to remove batteries in bags on the rear rack? Or do I need a rail-type battery case thing? I believe the controller is in the bag too and wonder about all the cables for it. But it's not heavy and doesn't need easy removal.

Is it worth the $ and time to make your own battery packs? I'll get the supplies, solder iron, charger/analyzer needed if it saves good money. Guy on youtube doesn't use a BMS but has testing equipment that keeps him informed all the time about the batteries.

Do I need a 500 or 350 watt motor and 36 or 48v? I'll get at least 11ah

Nelson37

Quick and easy to remove battery in bag, yes, a good idea to do it a LOT, no. How many is a LOT, I am not sure, and opinions vary, along with the connector type, such as bullets, andersons, deans, others. Dozens, likely OK, hundreds, especially with cheap bullet connectors, probably not. Slide mount frame-carry batteries, dolphin, shark, hailong, etc, seem somewhat more robust.

The controller is in the bag if you put it there, generally, they need cooling airflow. Under the seat is a good location. Good idea to order an extra one as they are cheap and ship for nothing along with an order. Order one all by itself and shipping is high. Do some trial orders for shipping charges, you will be amazed.

Some of the bottle-mount batteries have a controller inside the battery case. Make sure of compatibility with motor and that connectors match, unless you want to buy crimp tool and roll your own.

Making your own batteries depends on how much free time you have, there are solder free kits, soldering on 18650 considered very bad idea by those who know their stuff. Spot welder necessary. BMS has pros and cons, before you decide on that watch some of the battery fire videos. Not safe to go without IMO. Batteries can catch fire from voltage too low, or too high, those numbers change over the battery lifetime, and the fire resembles multiple blowtorches and is difficult to put out.

Size and speed, or voltage? IMO the 201 is too slow and the 328 is too fast, unless you pedal a lot. 260 likely the sweet spot, but YMMV.

I know my mxus 36V,350W motor tops out about 18mph in a 700c wheel, but I am honestly not certain of the rpm rating.

Rick Imby

I have a bbs02 and ride it a lot without power. The bike is heavy but once I get it up to speed it is fine. There is no noticeable drag from the BBS02.

With a Mid drive gearing is important. I followed advice for snow riding and went with a 30t front sprocket---big mistake. I bought a Lekkie 42 and it works much better however for road use I would rather have a 48 or 52. They are available now from Luna---

For 30mph riding go with a Lekkie 52 tooth sprocket. You will still be able to assist the motor at 25+ mph.

I always want to be able to assist the motor by pedalling. If over 20mph with 42/11 gearing I am pedalling faster than I want.

Over 20 mph on a bike with V brakes is foolish in my opinion. A simple splash of water and you cannot stop. Don't think of going very fast when it is raining with V-brakes. If you are replacing the fork be sure to get one with disc tabs.

I have never bothered to remove my battery when riding without power as I never know where I might end up going and may want it. The extra weight is easily overcome with just a quick tap of the throttle when starting.

I am willing to pay a bit more for the convenience of buying from Luna. There is so much information available and they were very helpful. I am much fonder of buying from US companies.

Their $750 mid drive kit would be top of the list for my recommendation---I would add a lekkie chainring to that order.

Bizman

I ditto pretty much everything Rick says! However, I use the BBSHD as my bike is a Cargo bike and I tend to haul groceries and other cargo up hills in my area and did not want to heat a smaller motor up. It is not hot rodded and mapped for the stock legal 750 W. I use the 42 t Luna eclipse front chainring as I needed more offset than the Lekke 42 t would offer. I have the 10 sp rear cassette as I wanted the gearing to be able to pedal like a regular non powered bike.

I rarely use my battery power except for real steep hills and hauling cargo up hills, once moving it moves right along! I also do not feel any noticeable drag when pedaling when not using the motor. I use PAS level #1 (5 total) when using the motor. I do have the throttle installed but it is disconnected. I only have it installed in case of an emergency. Luna has been a good company to work with and good customer service. Very easy to install, I did one for my wife, she loves it!

Doc_Wui

I've been talking about hub motors. but I agreeing with Rick Imby.

For the dollars that Mike in FL will spend, at least $800 for a hub motor unless he finds a deal, the Lunacycle BBS02 deal is something you gotta jump onto. Sure, it will be closer to $900 by the time he adds a charger, shipping and the special spanner, but he's got a different class of bike. I can go slow on mine. I can run at 26 mph. It's the bike I took to Colorado last summer to ride (although my wife was on a hub motor). As you see from the above video, no pedal drag. I've ridden my 20 miles without power.

ANother advantage of the BBS02. You can change flat tires like it was a normal bike. You have to pull the crank gear and pedal arms anyway to install a PAS for a hubmotor. At this point, you unscrew the cones, pull out the BB axle and the BBS02 will go in. The rest of the install should be simple.

If you build a Q100H, you'll probably want to build a faster bike a year from now. WIth the BBS02, you already have it.

My BBS02 and battery came from Lunacycle. Cost me over $1100 in 2016. They're a wild and crazy group over there, but wow, they have made the BBS02 a lot more affordable. When I first started looking, their competitors were asking $800 or more for the kit.

MikeinFL

the $750 Luna deal is tempting for sure. I like mid drives for the main reason the wheels would be easy to change tires etc.

I also found a used converted bike online for sale with a BBS02 installed on a hybrid like mine, used 6 months, for $1k. With a 12ah Panasonic 48v cell battery, charged 4 times. goes 30mph and probably more. More power then I really need.

I could get that but I don't have room for 2 bikes, and selling my current no name brand one will not be easy. If they came down on price I'd probably get it. But then I see the Luna deal and figure if I want a BBS02 why not get a new one.

I've searched and searched for a 36v 500w rear 700c hub (I prefer silver) and can't find a good deal in USA, and china deals are ok and save some $ but not a whole lot. the 700c is kinda rare and I see a lot of 26" out there so I was thinking of changing from 700c to 26" on my hybrid.

kits like dillinger, Leeds, etc in USA get up and over $1k. except the Luna deal.

the Leeds $1k kit has a rear rack battery slide out which I like. I know I can find kits and rear racks and anything in china dealers but with shipping it seems I might save only a few hundred bucks.

Would there be significant difference in pedal resistance between a BBS02 and a 500watt rear hub? I'm understanding that a geared hub is better. And then when I slide out the rear rack battery, or dolphin case, my bike would seem almost no different then now, except for an extra 10 lbs, with a geared hub. Am i right?

Nelson37

Mike, six years ago I was right exactly where you are now. Three years later after I did a LOT of reading and research, I choose a kit which suited my needs well and after 3 years and 10,00 miles, is still working fine.

With a battery to suit your needs total cost is currently $925.00. Easy install. Notice I am not mentioning a particular vendor?

Changing a flat on a motored hub like mine is no more difficult than on the non-motorized rear. While the wheel spins less than the rear, it will spin for one heckuva lot more than 10 seconds. Quality does vary, even on identical motors. Some companies, and some vendors, have better quality control. Some do not.

Did you know that there are multiple sizes of bottom bracket, and also that the maximum legal e-bike speed in Florida is 20 mph? Also, your bike would not be considered safe, as few are without extensive and expensive modifications, at much over that speed?

Like me, you live in Florida, the land of the FOPs, the blue-hairs, the Q-Tips. Ride like you are invisible, because they do NOT see you.

Have you considered a Friction drive? Has its drawbacks, but just might work very well for what you want. Recommend u go to that site I pointed you to, lookup Kepler's drive, then take a look at the Rubbee mentioned here. One of those is a well-thought out, well-engineered piece of equipment designed by someone who knows what he is about. The other one combines an absolutely amazing number of bad ideas into a single device designed by a marketing guy with no clue. But then, one is pretty to look at and the other less so.

While at that site, look up a recent comparative battery disassembly on two similar batteries, from two different vendors. First satisfy yourself that the guy doing the work is knowledgeable and is not pushing a particular product. One vendor sells a battery with significantly better build quality and engineering, both handle BBS drives at similar pricing. One I recommend wholeheartedly, the other I do not.

Another thing you should do is look up a guy who likes dogs, and has been around a long time, and regularly buys used bikes and batteries. His valuation of a used battery never exceeds $50, for very good reasons. You should read them and understand how to avoid the common problems.

Sure, you might find the one driven only by a little old lady to church on Sundays, but making certain of that is not a simple task.

PatrickGSR94

I also recommend Luna and the BBS02 setup. I bought my kit back in early Spring of this year, and already have 2,500 miles on my bike since the conversion. I have lots of rolling hills where I live, so I figured mid-drive would be best for me. I ordered the BBS02 kit, along with a 52V 13.5aH bottle-style battery. I wanted to be able to do my 30 mile round trip commute, with about 900 feet total climbing, on a single charge. Keeping my PAS level to 3 or 4 out of 9 (bumping it up on hills), I can just barely make it.

My bike is heavy, though. I built up a large steel MTB frame a couple of years ago into an upright-riding Dutch-inspired bicycle to be used mainly for hauling stuff in my cargo trailer or my kid's tagalong bike. It's got 2.15" Big Apple tires, disc brakes, tall mary-jane style handlebars, double kickstand, spring steering stablizer, and a rear rack and fenders. It was around 35 pounds or so before the conversion. Now in e-bike form it's close to 60 pounds, and over that once I put on my trunk bag stuffed full for a commute to work.

Chain line with the stock BBS02 44t chain ring was pretty bad. With my 8-speed cassette, the best chain line was way out in 6th gear. The lowest 2 gears were almost unusable. I switched to a 42t Lekkie ring, and the chain line is near perfect now. But clearance to the chainstay is minimal. The Lekkie ring is a true 1x narrow-wide ring, and the clearance between the wide teeth and the right chain stay is LESS THAN 1 millimeter! There's no way I could use anything larger unless the ring were pushed back out to a less-than-ideal position. As a result top speed is limited. I can cruise along at 22-23 mph in the 42-11 gear no problem. But getting over 28-30 on a big downhill requires a very high cadence. It's much easier to go 30-35 mph downhill on my road bike in the 50-11 gear.

Since I keep the PAS fairly low most of the time, my average speeds aren't anything special. 16-17 MPH moving average most of the time, for a work commute. But I love the bike so much. I still ride and still commute on my road bike sometimes, but it's tough on the hills. The e-bike is a much more enjoyable ride.