CyclesMakaron

I wasn't supposed to deal with titanium EM because "Litespeed built them all" and there's nothing interesting about it... However, a few details need to be described and explained (in fact, a few questions). Just in case I'll start with this titanium frames which for sure "all of them were built by Litespeed"
1) Titanium mass production or EMC orders frames from Litespeed (LS), Chattanooga TN.
EMC had no chance to produce in larger quantities of titanium frames (unless instead of steel frames and at a huge cost), it was much cheaper and more convenient to order production from a company that "in titanium" worked for a long time and was able to build frames from it.



There were 2 models: AX being a titanium copy of Century and EX being a titanium copy of Mx Leader.
Both models were not painted, had their own graphic designs ("EDDY MERCKX" in 3D, inverted stripes in "EM logo") and a sticker explaining without any doubt that "design by Eddy Merckx" but "built in USA by Litespeed"...
AX had vertical dropouts and "normal" tubes
EX had horizontal dropouts and "ovalized" tubes
Both models were built from titanium tubes referred to as 3Al - 2.5V
In the AX, soon introduced modifications were limited to changing "bent" chainstays to "ordinary" and introducing "more EMC" fonts (while maintaining their red colour)
Only the font has been changed in EX (keeping the blue colour)
The earliest confirmed frame of the popular "titanium Merckx" was created in 1995 (perhaps earlier, I don't have any proof of that)
(The Millennium and the Majestic are models later - maybe someday...)
t.b.c.

CyclesMakaron

2) Model Titane - this name is not accidental, American production had the name Titanium, Titane is already a suggestion that we are in Belgium - and indeed...
...but only to paint the LS frame in Meise. The Titane model made no distinction between AX and EX (which is funny because EX was 50% more expensive than AX... In other words, you can buy EX occasionally, or you can overpay for AX if it was painted in EMC and marked Titane - consumer advice free of charge)
All Titane I have seen have a "design/built" sticker identical to the one from AX/EX
No copy had the "12 stars EU" sticker.
The honest truth is, everything's fine.





The last photo is an illustration of an interesting story: a frame bought in the US, sent to Meise, painted there and sent back to the US - as you can see, EX Titane, an operation performed in 1999.
It's been nice and stress-free so far, but we'll soon be dealing with the Titane EM model and the framework for "profiteam" - then it'll get weird...
t.b.c.

masi61

The painted ones are really gorgeous. Thanks for posting.

Which one one do you own? How does it ride?

I wonder if the one one based on the MX Leader is stiff like the MX Leader in steel?

CyclesMakaron

3) Titane EM model - this added EM is very important (and is very often omitted) because it suggests that we no longer deal with repainted LS... Other differences between Titane and Titane EM are: a different sticker or "Litespeed Titanium Custom Tubing" but "built by Eddy Merckx", using the sticker "12 stars EU" and mounting EMC style guides on top tube (cable inside).
All "civil" Titane EM frames that I saw were built from LS tubes with the use of brake bridge and dropouts also LS.








In one of his releases Eddy Merckx said that the Titane EM is entirely produced in Meise. In a movie on YT - merckx.m4v - we visit the factory in Meise, the proud host shows titanium tubes (and there are many of them) and talks about building frames from different materials... (The film is from 2002). The claim that "all Merckx titanium frames were built in the LS" does not have to be - as it seems - completely true.
There are professionals... which is chaos...
t.b.c.

CyclesMakaron

4) Profiframe early
Now we have to go back to 1992. Supposedly there were already titanium frames in the Motorola team (no matter where they were built) and this photo is presented as evidence:


Unfortunately, this is the Mx Leader frame in one of the 1992 versions (this is what seatstays at the seat lug looked like, the extremely "thick" chainstays and of course a fork). I didn't find any photos of titanium EMC frames from the 1992 season.
Now you have to show 2 photos from the 1995 season and explain why:



As you've noticed, ordinary Titane EM frames were a copy of Mx Leader (like Titanium EX; I haven't seen any Titane EM frames in the style of Titanium AX), but in these pictures you can see frames that don't have their name and are "inverted" EX (top and bottom tubes have thicker and thinner ends placed "inverse" to EX / Mx Leader)... I'll use the letters RX to mark them (name definitely unofficial, but handy). Frames 17 and 119 are RX, frames 11 and 111 are EX.
This time we go back to 1993 - there is no doubt that Motorola team used titanium frames:





There are two interesting features: Columbus stickers on Oslo and 31 frames and "cut out" dropouts on frame 34 (instead of the classic "EM logo" for titanium AX/EX)
The next pictures are the RX variety:




Frame 39 - again Columbus, 2 frames Caloi - again "cut out" dropouts
The only sticker we can consider is Columbus Hyperion. It's not possible for Litespeed to build frames from Columbus tubes... but it's possible to "advertise" the "right" stickers (sticking R753 frames with Columbus stickers was the norm, and it's hard to omit the name Caloi... and we can be sure that none of these frames has seen Brazil)
t.b.c.

CyclesMakaron

5) Mysterious prototypes
Brake bridge and cut-out dropouts - LS, tubes probably also... second frame painted ~2006. Telekom looks like 1993 (stealth geo season), both frames are RX:

CyclesMakaron

6) Frames "with interesting papers"






The documentation of this framework has been 'revised' for unknown reasons, but two points are obvious: it is a titanium frame (with LS trinkets) and Altec has nothing to do with it, and that the entry 'Belgian gemacht' means 'Made in Belgium' (the serial number on the BB cover is identical to that on the fiche)




The Motorola/Hampsten documentation contains one shocking record: "hyperion"... This is no longer an "advertising" sticker, this is absolutely certain information about the construction of this miracle (from the Zonder or Special series)
It seems that at this point the consideration of "all the titanium frames for Merckx built Litespeed" can be considered... open - both frames were built in the summer of 1994, later probably at EMC they didn't forget how to do it - the question is when did they really start building them? What if the year before and Columbus Hyperion stickers on Motorola titanium frames in 1993 show the facts?
t.b.c.

CyclesMakaron

7. Titane EM team GAN
All titanium team GAN frames are described as Titane EM (unlike the Motorola/Caloi team where you won't find this inscription). Early frames 94-96 have yellow EMC/Litespeed stickers, frames 97-98 have Columbus Hyperion stickers.

botty kayer

Great stuff as always.

As you know I have a 1996 Litespeed made EX and to my knowledge all the AX frames were made with 3Al - 2.5V ti, but the EX versions had main frame tubes (TT, DT, ST) made from 6Al - 4V ti making them stiffer/less flexy than the AX's.

Also from your pics it looks like it was only the Merckx built ti frames that had the rear brake cable running through the top tube, all the Litespeed built ones I've seen had external rear brake cables.

Also maybe interesting to note that Litespeed was owned and run by the Lynksey brothers up until 1999, before they came back into cycling and set up a cycling company again under the Lynksey brand in 2006.

CyclesMakaron

8) The endless competition "who, when and on what frame (EX or RX) was driving in a Motorola team":

CyclesMakaron

I have doubts about the use of 6Al - 4V from the beginning of EX production, so I preferred not to include this information. According to Litespeed, the only road frame (in the world) built in 1996 entirely with 6-4 was their Vortex, in 1997 such information is no longer available, but in their offer all the time only Vortex (from road bikes) is built with 6-4... EX was then built with 6-4, but I don't know when... The chance for team frames to be built with 6-4 is much higher, but I don't have any confirmation for that.

CyclesMakaron

It's really over... a couple of things - Telekom and Cyclocross

CyclesMakaron

Magos

Thank you for sharing all this info with us 👌

Lascauxcaveman 

You've given us a lot to think about.

CyclesMakaron

As a complement:
The opinion "all Merckx titanium frames built in Litespeed" is always supported in 3 ways:
1) Litespeed employee relations
2) statements made by people in teams
3) what and how titanium EMCs were built from

1) The people of Litespeed did not need to know what is produced in Meise. I read a story about how Eddy Merckx came to the LS and asked to train his people to build in titanium... ...but he was refused. Maybe, but then he worked with Litespeed for 10 years... ...he wasn't easily offended.
2) I only read reports from people from Motorola, nothing certain; no information from Telekom and GAN.
3) All frames have Litespeed construction elements (brake bridge, dropouts) and are all made using a similar technique (tube joining, brake bridge, dropouts) regardless of where and from which tubes they are made.

In my opinion the following options are possible:
- the framebuilder from EMC has been trained in Litespeed; LS gets a contract for mass production of AX and EX, EMC builds minimum quantities of titanium frames (mainly for teams)
- Modification: Framebuilder from Litespeed trains people in Meise; the rest without change
- In Meise, they build "copies" without Litespeed, but with the help of Ugo De Ros (who has been "chiseling in titanium" since 1990). This time it is Litespeed who "does not offend" at EMC and sells parts and tubes and builds AX, EX, Millennium and Majestic for 10 years.

...the last possibility would be the biggest surprise

mechanicmatt

My neighbor worked at LS during this time period, I alerted him to this thread and we will see if he answers. This came up as a discussion between us before though, I never asked about extreme specifics and time frames but the impression was that LS made all the EMC titanium bicycles. Important to remember that back then custom design and build frames from the factory were available (I think), so I wouldn't be surprised if slight variations occured through the years.

Titanium was top of the top before carbon became so prevalent during late 90's. LS, Merlin, and later Seven were the go to places for it.

CyclesMakaron

Unfortunately, he does not have access to the entire article or even the date of publication (most probably 1995)

CyclesMakaron

EMC 2012 catalogue p.32:
"When titanium was on the up and started to replaced steel, Merckx decided to send his head welder Johan (Vranckx) to the United States to learn how to weld titanium"
For me, the theme: "Was all titanium frames for EMC built in Litespeed?" was actually closed...

MiloFrance

A side note: I have a Columbus Hyperion Ti frame dressed as a Peugeot Team line, in Festina colours. I had heard rumours via a FakeBook member that the Festina Ti frames were made by LS. The FB person that led me to that is a translator and had this up their sleeve, from I believe a 2016 article in ProCycling. (Probably copyright ProCycling, so credit where it's due):
"All the more impressive was how stable that bike (The T1SL) rode considering that at least in the past many titanium frames were definitely lacking in this regard. I remember a titanium frame we should ride at Team Festina in 1998. It was branded as a Peugeot which was our sponsor then but it was made by Litespeed. I only rode this frame for 15 kilometers before I ended this experiment. One descent from an Italian mountain pass when training for the upcoming Giro was enough to understand that this frame not only had a weird geometry, not suitable to negotiate turns at high speed. It also was dangerously lacking in stiffness. Fortunately the T1 SL turned out to be a completely different character"
Based on this I got in touch with LS to check the serial number. Although the date matches up, it's not a LS built bike. More research yielded the knowledge that EM and DeRosa had Ti frames built in Meise, using Hyperion tubes. It seems that Hyperion didn't have the stiffness needed for any kind of performance riding, although this one is small for me so I wouldn't thrash it anyway. All that remains from my standpoint is to find some serial numbers that match the dates and place to the frame. Pics in the morning, bed time here.

CyclesMakaron

Thank you for very interesting information
Each of these manufacturers (Merckx, De Rosa, Litespeed) had its own frame marking system and used a different 'typeface' and a different way of combining titanium elements
I am not sure that the Columbus Hyperion tubes were guilty of a lack of stiffness in the frames
De Rosa used them to build the Titanio model ( since 1992 ), in 1994 it was used by Team Gewiss and ...they did not complain
Merckx was building frames with Hyperion for Motorola, Telekom and GAN, and it was also OK
It is funny to collect information from two 'certain sources': "an 'eyewitness' claims that the frame was built by the LS, and the LS categorically claims that it was definitely not
...thankfully, there are a few other possible solutions...
3 photos:
BB cover with manufacturer's markings
place combination of dropouts and stays
brake bridge
...and maybe we'll get closer to the truth

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MiloFrance

Photos...
The downtube on my Colnago Titanio has a similar profile but no label as to what breed of titanium it might be.



White label above the weld possibly Peugeot ID label?

CyclesMakaron

There is nothing to connect this frame to Merckx and Meise...
A lot, however, with frames built in Italy (not necessarily De Rosa) - I've tracked an identical lower tube in the frame: Muraca, Rossin, Bianchi... (and a similar technique of joining elements)
As for the "contradictory testimony" concerning Litespeed... that's all right: Peugeot had a titanium frame with LS tubes in 1998, but not built in LS (similar to EMC and the Titane EM model)
In addition, it had two frames built with Columbus Hyperion: normal and TT
Who really built the frames for Peugeot? I don't know, but it was probably mass production for several companies, mostly Italian...

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