Uncaged bottom bracket bearings?
06-14-19, 01:57 PM
#51
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Let my people go! .. a caged bearing was heard to say
06-14-19, 03:08 PM
#52
~>~
In this electron microscope video taken of the interaction of molecules of Phil Wood grease around a single loose ball bearing in a re-built 1970's English Sugino MW-68 bottom bracket we can see how precise the flow of grease is from an endurance pace through a typical City Limits Sign Sprint:
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06-14-19, 03:37 PM
#54
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Let's ask Sheldon & Jobst if those angels dancing on the heads of pins are wearing ballet slippers or tap shoes.....
Same irrelevance regarding "performance" as the "caged vs loose" bearings in a bicycle BB, but Seraphim in tap shoes gets my vote for a Bugsby Berkeley version of heaven.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx6s-YReOJY
-Bandera
Same irrelevance regarding "performance" as the "caged vs loose" bearings in a bicycle BB, but Seraphim in tap shoes gets my vote for a Bugsby Berkeley version of heaven.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx6s-YReOJY
-Bandera
In this electron microscope video taken of the interaction of molecules of Phil Wood grease around a single loose ball bearing in a re-built 1970's English Sugino MW-68 bottom bracket we can see how precise the flow of grease is from an endurance pace through a typical City Limits Sign Sprint:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysvQ5MaUbd8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysvQ5MaUbd8
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06-14-19, 07:13 PM
#55
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I cannont argue the points made but, here's the rub: how do we find "quality caged ball bearings"? I can imagine that quality balls are easy but determining the quality of the cage ( given the variety of ways to cut costs and corners on a stamped, rolled n welded cage thing) is beyond me. I have no idea what the relative quality of that drawer full of caged bearings at my LBS is. As pointed out above, even wide tolerances in cage dimensions can alter performance consistency. Finish of the edges on the stamping can as well. Spacing, rolling of the cage 'fingers', cage height and OD. My head spins.
How to know what's what".........
How to know what's what".........
06-14-19, 10:27 PM
#56
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06-28-19, 01:00 PM
#57
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Had long known that bicycles were the killer app for ball bearings. Before bicycles, ball bearings were an oddity. Parts ran in babbitt metal journals or in brass bushings and anything else was very custom. Bikes needed ball bearings and got them. The mention of Archibald Sharp above got me curious. Normally I'd not quibble with Sharp. My copy of Bicycles and Tricycles is very well thumbed and will soon need rubber bands to hold it together.
So I got curious about what ball bearings were like in 1896. Answer is in Anglo-American industry ball bearings were turned on lathes. Diameter of a lathe turned bearing was accurate to about 0.001". Except for when they settled for 0.002". Surface finish was variable to same 0.001". This is not grade 25. This is not grade 2500. The idea of matched balls from same batch does not apply. Better than not having ball bearings but real different than what we are used to. Also of course extremely expensive. Archibald Sharp could very likely not see much in favor of putting balls that rough into a retainer.
What I could not find out was when bearings got more normal. Was able to find that as late as 1900 they were still lathe-turned. Before 1892/3 balls were hard to get at all. Then there are multiple mentions of German bearings being ground, not turned, in a process similar to modern, as early as 1883. Hard to understand why an advance like that would entirely go unnoticed in UK or America. Also super-annoying that search engines resist all but Anglophone world.
If anyone knows more about history of bearings would be most interested.
So I got curious about what ball bearings were like in 1896. Answer is in Anglo-American industry ball bearings were turned on lathes. Diameter of a lathe turned bearing was accurate to about 0.001". Except for when they settled for 0.002". Surface finish was variable to same 0.001". This is not grade 25. This is not grade 2500. The idea of matched balls from same batch does not apply. Better than not having ball bearings but real different than what we are used to. Also of course extremely expensive. Archibald Sharp could very likely not see much in favor of putting balls that rough into a retainer.
What I could not find out was when bearings got more normal. Was able to find that as late as 1900 they were still lathe-turned. Before 1892/3 balls were hard to get at all. Then there are multiple mentions of German bearings being ground, not turned, in a process similar to modern, as early as 1883. Hard to understand why an advance like that would entirely go unnoticed in UK or America. Also super-annoying that search engines resist all but Anglophone world.
If anyone knows more about history of bearings would be most interested.
06-29-19, 10:22 PM
#58
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A point that will seem pedantic, but "bearing" is the word for the assembly that "bears" the force of rotation. A headset is a bearing. The steel balls are not bearings; they are balls. They are balls for bearings, hence the proper term is "bearing balls," not "ball bearings." Similarly, the laces you use to tie your shoes are shoelaces, not laceshoes.
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06-29-19, 11:11 PM
#59
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Thanks for all the responses. The spacing argument seemed like it would be worth investigating, so I hunted around a bit to see what Jobst Brandt had to say about the topic. In this rec.bicycles.tech thread, he wrote:
Hmmm. Sir Sheldon disagrees:
Unfortunately, we can't ask either Jobst or Sheldon.
I do have some Campy caged bearings, not in front of me, though what I've read suggests they probably hold 11 bearings. The reason for buying the Sugino was that I lacked a suitable Campy spindle. This bb was cheap enough that even if I didn't use the cups and bearings, I'd have a spindle I could use. I think I will try 11 loose bearings and see how it goes. Unless the ride is so magical that I sell every other bike I own and start riding 20k miles per year, based on what I've read I rather suspect there will be little effective lifetime wear difference between 9 caged, 11 caged or 11 loose bearings.
Hmmm. Sir Sheldon disagrees:
Unfortunately, we can't ask either Jobst or Sheldon.
I do have some Campy caged bearings, not in front of me, though what I've read suggests they probably hold 11 bearings. The reason for buying the Sugino was that I lacked a suitable Campy spindle. This bb was cheap enough that even if I didn't use the cups and bearings, I'd have a spindle I could use. I think I will try 11 loose bearings and see how it goes. Unless the ride is so magical that I sell every other bike I own and start riding 20k miles per year, based on what I've read I rather suspect there will be little effective lifetime wear difference between 9 caged, 11 caged or 11 loose bearings.
06-30-19, 12:56 PM
#60
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My good friend Bob is a mechanical engineer for Husqvrna. The other night I asked him which is better for a bicycle crank axle, 11 loose or 9 caged bearings. Without going into a lot of detail, he said, in most applications caged bearings have the advantage. The predictable position of the bearing reduces wear on the race. Because of the loose tolerances and the light load on bicycle crank bearings, it probably doesn't make any difference if the bearings are in a cage or loose. The downward force produced by a rider is 2 times their body weight. Crank bearings can easily handle 5 times the load produced by a 200 pound rider. Lubrication is far more important than bearing type or grade.
Please don't shoot the messenger
Please don't shoot the messenger
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07-07-19, 01:12 PM
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hey all,
I rebuilding the Nate e Abbiati I found in my sister's beach house basement. It's a standard 80s style frame. When I took out the campy BB it had 1/4" loose un-caged balls in it which surprised me. Most of the bike was campy GS, so I figured maybe that's the way it originally was set up. Well after serious cleaning and repacking the bearing balls the BB doesn't feel as smooth as I'd like.
JohnDThomspon on page1 recommended Bike Tools Etc., 11 ball cage.
Does anyone know if this 11 ball cage will work in a mid 80s campy BB?
I noticed that campy can use 10 or 11 ball cages. I'm not sure which goes to what.
thx
I rebuilding the Nate e Abbiati I found in my sister's beach house basement. It's a standard 80s style frame. When I took out the campy BB it had 1/4" loose un-caged balls in it which surprised me. Most of the bike was campy GS, so I figured maybe that's the way it originally was set up. Well after serious cleaning and repacking the bearing balls the BB doesn't feel as smooth as I'd like.
JohnDThomspon on page1 recommended Bike Tools Etc., 11 ball cage.
Does anyone know if this 11 ball cage will work in a mid 80s campy BB?
I noticed that campy can use 10 or 11 ball cages. I'm not sure which goes to what.
thx
07-07-19, 03:05 PM
#62
Senior Member
My good friend Bob is a mechanical engineer for Husqvrna. The other night I asked him which is better for a bicycle crank axle, 11 loose or 9 caged bearings. Without going into a lot of detail, he said, in most applications caged bearings have the advantage. The predictable position of the bearing reduces wear on the race. Because of the loose tolerances and the light load on bicycle crank bearings, it probably doesn't make any difference if the bearings are in a cage or loose. The downward force produced by a rider is 2 times their body weight. Crank bearings can easily handle 5 times the load produced by a 200 pound rider. Lubrication is far more important than bearing type or grade.
Please don't shoot the messenger
Please don't shoot the messenger
07-07-19, 06:30 PM
#63
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Oil or grease?
-Kurt
-Kurt
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