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FYI... Rider Pedestrian Liability

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FYI... Rider Pedestrian Liability

Old 12-07-20, 12:23 PM
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70sSanO
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FYI... Rider Pedestrian Liability

A few months ago I was riding on a trail that was changed a while back to eliminate a skinny water crossing. A drain tube was installed underneath and now it is smooth. Unfortunately it has caused sort of a perfect storm since it is located at the transition that includes coming down one way off a bank and going into a short climb and the other way coming down the hill. But the real problem is that it is a blind turn. When you throw in hikers of all ages and, on top of the potential head-on, things could get messy. In reality a mirror should be installed.

It is one area that I take extra care, but on that ride coming around the turn was a group of hikers, and even though I use a bell in those situations, I came close to hitting one of them. Everything was fine and no collision, but I wanted to find out what would happen if I had hit a hiker, and even worse a kid who happened to jump out in front of me. Since the pedestrians/hikers have the right of way, it probably would have been my fault.

My homeowner's policy is coming due so I talked to my insurance agent and was told that it would be covered under my homeowner's policy, and I also have an umbrella on top of that. I'm not sure how things would be for someone who rents; and if a renter's policy has similar protections.

Just thought I would pass this on.

John
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Old 12-07-20, 01:48 PM
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So you are saying, if you hit a pedestrian in a group and have no insurance ... you have to kill them all?
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Old 12-07-20, 01:51 PM
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This is a society with a victim mentality and a love for law suits. As I result, I have carried a similar umbrella policy for years.

On our local trails the posted rules state that cyclists are to yield to pedestrians. I'm no lawyer, but that would seem to bias any liability in an accident toward the cyclist - barring any obvious overt action by the pedestrian.
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Old 12-07-20, 01:56 PM
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Since you are just passing this on, I will pass this on: once my wife and I had some money and some professional responsibilities (e.g., people working under us, so potential HR issues), we got a $1m umbrella liability policy on top of our already stout homeowners' policy. It's not expensive, and it gives some peace of mind. Still, one mistake behind the wheel of a car could result in a settlement or judgment of well over $1m.
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Old 12-07-20, 02:50 PM
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Staying to the RIGHT in the USA is applied to everyone when using a public route. It would be logical to assume that the person that is on the right side of the path would be in the right of way.
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Old 12-07-20, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
So you are saying, if you hit a pedestrian in a group and have no insurance ... you have to kill them all?
Naw come on, don't be silly. Just means you better not stop.

I had a little dog run under my rear wheel. When I stopped and saw the dog was OK some random guy said we should "exchange contact info" in case further problems arose. I asked him what possible reason would I have for doing that? He was also trying to talk the dog owner into an emergency vet visit (Sunday morning).
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Old 12-07-20, 04:55 PM
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Riders need to use their common sense and be ultra-cautious and certainly not exceed 7 or 8 MPH ( YES!!! only maximum of 7 to 8 mph !!) when within 100 feet of pedestrian traffic. The reasons why are that should it come to that (court, lawsuit...), the presiding judge will have little to no sympathy for the person riding the bicycle who collided with pedestrians, joggers, or the pedestrian/jogger's wayward darting dog if still retained on a 20 ft leash. In nearly all jurisdictions, you will find heavy prejudice against bicyclists, such that even in the most extraordinary circumstance, it will be assumed that the reckless nature and aggressive riding of the bicyclist was the major contributing factor. Video evidence from multiple camera angles ( assuming surveilance cameras, and or spectators, or cyclist's own go-pro or "dash cam", or dash cam footage of park ranger vehicle or other persons' dash cam footage or phone, etc....) ....video evidence from multiple camera angles will not likely be worth a damn in your quest to show that the majority of fault was not yours(the cyclist's fault!!). It won't matter that BRUTUS the 85 pound dog and his house mate the 65 pound Black Lab named MILLIE decided to do some impromptu butt sniffing while the owners were walking them on 20 ft leashes. IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT YOU WERE RIDING TOO FAST FOR THE GIVEN CONDITIONS AND THAT YOU LACKED GOOD JUDGEMENT AND BEHAVED IN A SELFISH AND RECKLESS MANNER WHEN YOU CONTINUED TO PROCEED TOWARDS THE PEDESTRIANS ON THAT PATH OR PARK ROADWAY!! They will assert that you should have stopped and then dismounted your bicycle at least some 15 ft before reaching any pedestrian traffic and then simply WALKED THE BICYCLE UNTIL SUCH TIME THAT YOU WERE WELL BEYOND ANY PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC BEFORE AGAIN MOUNTING AND PROCEEDING ONWARD!

I'm not joking when I say that this is the "attitude" that you will most likely be facing during the legal/judicial process. Is it fair? maybe not, but you'd be extremely naive if you believe that all legal and judicial proceedings are equal/fair without any sort of bias. Your best bet as the old saying goes is to "keep your nose clean" and don't ever get into any legal scrapes because the outcome is never a certainty and you could come out of it, holding the short end of the stick. It is a messy process that you don't want to get into IF YOU CAN OTHERWISE AVOID, especially if you are seen as having "Deep Pockets"/significant assets and coverage policies that can be "tapped" for the "VICTIM" 's injuries/dimenished use-permanent physical disability, etc.

Hey, I am not a lawyer and I never played one on television but my neighbor is a retired lawyer that I sometimes play golf with and sometimes ride along with. We have discussed this before while amongst friends and fellow tennis pals and cyclists at a charity golf tournament's after tournament barbeque and beer fest. It seemed that somebody's son in law had the unfortunate luck of lightly coliding with a jogger who was running with 2 leashed dogs. The son-in-law was on his bike and supposedly the jogger unexpectedly went left because his dogs forced him left and the jogger impacted with the bicycle. It was scuttlebutt heresay among the after golf barbeque and beers that this kid on the bike ( a 36 year old radiologist and son in law of one of my tennis pals) got raked over the coals you might say by one of Atlanta's most well known billboard and television ad buying attorneys who got a substantial amount for his client the jogger with the two dogs.
Hey, I am not faulting the legal profession or the skill of these most experienced attorneys at "protecting their clients' rights" and securing a "reasonable" settlement given the "injury", etc..... THERE IS NO REASON TO FAULT THE ATTORNEYS BECAUSE GIVEN THE WAY THINGS ARE, YOU MAY AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER IN THE FUTURE FIND YOURSELF NEEDING to protect your rights To The Full Extent That Current Law Provides, and such a skilled trial attorney can do as much as humanly possible given your circumstance. It is never a sure thing. You can bet your ass that in most situations that IF THERE IS DECENT POTENTIAL TO GET SOMETHING ( attorneys operating on contingency basis...) , THEY WILL DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN FOR THAT 1/3 SETTLEMENT. You know you see them on tv all of the time with their television ads.........."Call Us, It Costs You Absolutely Nothing Unless We Win Your Case, Let Us Protect Your Rights and Get You Everything That You Are Entitled To..........Call (xxx)@@@--%%%% The Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe, Law Group ..........the Warriors for Justice.....

Yep, you do not want to be in that cesspool circus of legal entanglement IF YOU CAN AT ALL AVOID GETTING INTO SUCH A SCRAPE................so just don't be the dumbass that even lightly brushes a pedestrian while riding on a multi-use path........................go super slow or walk the bike if necessary where there are people(pedestrians) congregating..............
It is likely gonna work out bad for you even with video evidence because the footage will likely show a cyclist wearing "Lance Armstrong gear" riding a bicycle with racing handlebars, racing seat, narrow tires, fancy racing bicycle shoes, and an aerodynamic helmet. Their assertion is that you were riding a purpose built racing bicycle in a manner that was too fast for the prevailing conditions with many pedestrians scattered about and further charge that you were impatient, and exhibited the worst judgement possible in your quest to speedily attempt to navigate through a sea of law minding pedestrians. There will be no sympathy as the public's point of view is seemingly: "Why The Heck Is That Adult Even Riding A Bicycle Here..".
They are gonna see the video if there is any video evidence and see that it wasn't Grandpa Walton of the Geritol Generation riding an upright 3 speed at a snails pace but some adult person looking like they are dressed to ride in the Tour de France and riding a bike that looks more like a Tour de France entrant's bicycle, than an old fashioned ordinary bicycle. Unless you're extremely lucky, chances are those are the prevailing attitudes that you as a "serious cyclist" will be up against should you find yourself in some scrape with pedestrian or jogger. Heck, in many instances where automobile drivers are at fault with minor collisions with bicycles, the cyclists are blamed for being where they do not belong and creating a nuisance and thus they should assume the risk of leisure-sport riding on a busy roadway that for all practical purposes was intended for motorvehicle traffic and not silly adults who want to ride bicycles wearing silly outlandish tight fitting spandex. Hey, we all know that there are too many folks and motorists who think that way. Until that changes significantly, you will have an Uphill battle in any disputed collision with a pedestrian. Avoid doing it, if it means riding extremely slow or walking the bike when near a custer of pedestrians...
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Old 12-07-20, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Vintage Schwinn
Riders need to use their common sense and be ultra-cautious and certainly not exceed 7 or 8 MPH ( YES!!! only maximum of 7 to 8 mph !!) when within 100 feet of pedestrian traffic.
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Old 12-07-20, 05:22 PM
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I know of one MUP in our area that have posted 10mph zones.

At 7-8mph I’d be concerned about riding too slow.

John
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Old 12-07-20, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO
My homeowner's policy is coming due so I talked to my insurance agent and was told that it would be covered under my homeowner's policy, and I also have an umbrella on top of that. I'm not sure how things would be for someone who rents; and if a renter's policy has similar protections.
The 2 renter's policies I carried from 2 providers did indeed offer something similar to the liability coverage that you describe. Any renter's policy that doesn't offer that sort of liability coverage isn't worth the paper it may be printed on, IMO.
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Old 12-08-20, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Vintage Schwinn
Riders need to use their common sense and be ultra-cautious and certainly not exceed 7 or 8 MPH ( YES!!! only maximum of 7 to 8 mph !!) when within 100 feet of pedestrian traffic. The reasons why are that should it come to that (court, lawsuit...), the presiding judge will have little to no sympathy for the person riding the bicycle who collided with pedestrians, joggers, or the pedestrian/jogger's wayward darting dog if still retained on a 20 ft leash. In nearly all jurisdictions, you will find heavy prejudice against bicyclists, such that even in the most extraordinary circumstance, it will be assumed that the reckless nature and aggressive riding of the bicyclist was the major contributing factor. Video evidence from multiple camera angles ( assuming surveilance cameras, and or spectators, or cyclist's own go-pro or "dash cam", or dash cam footage of park ranger vehicle or other persons' dash cam footage or phone, etc....) ....video evidence from multiple camera angles will not likely be worth a damn in your quest to show that the majority of fault was not yours(the cyclist's fault!!). It won't matter that BRUTUS the 85 pound dog and his house mate the 65 pound Black Lab named MILLIE decided to do some impromptu butt sniffing while the owners were walking them on 20 ft leashes. IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT YOU WERE RIDING TOO FAST FOR THE GIVEN CONDITIONS AND THAT YOU LACKED GOOD JUDGEMENT AND BEHAVED IN A SELFISH AND RECKLESS MANNER WHEN YOU CONTINUED TO PROCEED TOWARDS THE PEDESTRIANS ON THAT PATH OR PARK ROADWAY!! They will assert that you should have stopped and then dismounted your bicycle at least some 15 ft before reaching any pedestrian traffic and then simply WALKED THE BICYCLE UNTIL SUCH TIME THAT YOU WERE WELL BEYOND ANY PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC BEFORE AGAIN MOUNTING AND PROCEEDING ONWARD!

I'm not joking when I say that this is the "attitude" that you will most likely be facing during the legal/judicial process. Is it fair? maybe not, but you'd be extremely naive if you believe that all legal and judicial proceedings are equal/fair without any sort of bias. Your best bet as the old saying goes is to "keep your nose clean" and don't ever get into any legal scrapes because the outcome is never a certainty and you could come out of it, holding the short end of the stick. It is a messy process that you don't want to get into IF YOU CAN OTHERWISE AVOID, especially if you are seen as having "Deep Pockets"/significant assets and coverage policies that can be "tapped" for the "VICTIM" 's injuries/dimenished use-permanent physical disability, etc.

Hey, I am not a lawyer and I never played one on television but my neighbor is a retired lawyer that I sometimes play golf with and sometimes ride along with. We have discussed this before while amongst friends and fellow tennis pals and cyclists at a charity golf tournament's after tournament barbeque and beer fest. It seemed that somebody's son in law had the unfortunate luck of lightly coliding with a jogger who was running with 2 leashed dogs. The son-in-law was on his bike and supposedly the jogger unexpectedly went left because his dogs forced him left and the jogger impacted with the bicycle. It was scuttlebutt heresay among the after golf barbeque and beers that this kid on the bike ( a 36 year old radiologist and son in law of one of my tennis pals) got raked over the coals you might say by one of Atlanta's most well known billboard and television ad buying attorneys who got a substantial amount for his client the jogger with the two dogs.
Hey, I am not faulting the legal profession or the skill of these most experienced attorneys at "protecting their clients' rights" and securing a "reasonable" settlement given the "injury", etc..... THERE IS NO REASON TO FAULT THE ATTORNEYS BECAUSE GIVEN THE WAY THINGS ARE, YOU MAY AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER IN THE FUTURE FIND YOURSELF NEEDING to protect your rights To The Full Extent That Current Law Provides, and such a skilled trial attorney can do as much as humanly possible given your circumstance. It is never a sure thing. You can bet your ass that in most situations that IF THERE IS DECENT POTENTIAL TO GET SOMETHING ( attorneys operating on contingency basis...) , THEY WILL DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN FOR THAT 1/3 SETTLEMENT. You know you see them on tv all of the time with their television ads.........."Call Us, It Costs You Absolutely Nothing Unless We Win Your Case, Let Us Protect Your Rights and Get You Everything That You Are Entitled To..........Call (xxx)@@@--%%%% The Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe, Law Group ..........the Warriors for Justice.....

Yep, you do not want to be in that cesspool circus of legal entanglement IF YOU CAN AT ALL AVOID GETTING INTO SUCH A SCRAPE................so just don't be the dumbass that even lightly brushes a pedestrian while riding on a multi-use path........................go super slow or walk the bike if necessary where there are people(pedestrians) congregating..............
It is likely gonna work out bad for you even with video evidence because the footage will likely show a cyclist wearing "Lance Armstrong gear" riding a bicycle with racing handlebars, racing seat, narrow tires, fancy racing bicycle shoes, and an aerodynamic helmet. Their assertion is that you were riding a purpose built racing bicycle in a manner that was too fast for the prevailing conditions with many pedestrians scattered about and further charge that you were impatient, and exhibited the worst judgement possible in your quest to speedily attempt to navigate through a sea of law minding pedestrians. There will be no sympathy as the public's point of view is seemingly: "Why The Heck Is That Adult Even Riding A Bicycle Here..".
They are gonna see the video if there is any video evidence and see that it wasn't Grandpa Walton of the Geritol Generation riding an upright 3 speed at a snails pace but some adult person looking like they are dressed to ride in the Tour de France and riding a bike that looks more like a Tour de France entrant's bicycle, than an old fashioned ordinary bicycle. Unless you're extremely lucky, chances are those are the prevailing attitudes that you as a "serious cyclist" will be up against should you find yourself in some scrape with pedestrian or jogger. Heck, in many instances where automobile drivers are at fault with minor collisions with bicycles, the cyclists are blamed for being where they do not belong and creating a nuisance and thus they should assume the risk of leisure-sport riding on a busy roadway that for all practical purposes was intended for motorvehicle traffic and not silly adults who want to ride bicycles wearing silly outlandish tight fitting spandex. Hey, we all know that there are too many folks and motorists who think that way. Until that changes significantly, you will have an Uphill battle in any disputed collision with a pedestrian. Avoid doing it, if it means riding extremely slow or walking the bike when near a custer of pedestrians...
Do you have like, a text file that you just pop in or did you actually type all that out?! Wow
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Old 12-08-20, 05:10 PM
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Do any bicycle organizations offer liability insurance? It would seem a good fit for members of League of American Wheelmen, et al.
Riders get protection, organizations get a recruiting tool.
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Old 12-08-20, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pratt
Do any bicycle organizations offer liability insurance? It would seem a good fit for members of League of American Wheelmen, et al.
Riders get protection, organizations get a recruiting tool.
could wear color coordinated bandanas & get QR codes tatted on the skin, ya know for quick club identification purposes..
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Old 12-08-20, 05:19 PM
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It seems like the least they could do is put up caution signs for the hikers and cyclists warning of a crossing. Might be worth it to reach out to the managers of the trail system to suggest the improvements!
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Old 12-08-20, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul
could wear color coordinated bandanas & get QR codes tatted on the skin, ya know for quick club identification purposes..
Or identifying the body and notifying next of kin.
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Old 12-08-20, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Pratt
Or identifying the body and notifying next of kin.
klans do that.
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Old 12-08-20, 07:20 PM
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Seeing more trail runners this last summer. All wear ear buds cranking music so my bell is useless. Now that the leaves are off the trees it’s easier to see them coming. Still does not mean they pay attention.
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Old 12-08-20, 07:29 PM
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thought about bringing along a bug-a-salt, but don't want to corrode the composite materials any more sooner than the environment already does.
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Old 12-08-20, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by biker128pedal
Seeing more trail runners this last summer. All wear ear buds cranking music so my bell is useless. Now that the leaves are off the trees it’s easier to see them coming. Still does not mean they pay attention.
Need one of those air horns, if no response after 2 dings lay on the horn and watch them jump.
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Old 12-08-20, 10:56 PM
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More walkers and runners are tuned out to ‘Bicycle Passing’ due to earbuds. I bet with the legal scenario painted above, if they decided to change directions on the path without looking and walked right in front of you, the cyclist would still be at fault. But there is still some responsibility On them for not being aware of surroundings just like it’s illegal in my state to wear earbuds while driving, but the ‘racer’ on the bike will still get blamed. Thanks a lot Lance Armstrong

Thinking for another second, not calling out Passing or On your left and hitting the dufus that walks into you would probably seal your fate. Just spitballing.
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Old 12-09-20, 04:31 AM
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One thing is certain; the laws of physics have a "strict liability", Live your life as such and you may not need insurance.
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Old 12-09-20, 12:01 PM
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I have both a bell and horn on my velomobile. I usually toot the horn (very short 2 presses) and see if they react. Most walkers/runners aren't really expecting a horn to be on anything other than a car, so they often don't look because hey, they aren't on a street, right? I slow down and start ringing the bell at about 30 yards. Walkers, even without headphones often don't visibly react until I'm within about 20 feet. Again, I think it's because they don't know to listen for a bell (it's pretty uncommon around here). If I'm slowed to a walking speed, they are blocking the path still (3-4 wide) they get a full blast of the horn from up close.

Believe it or not, I've been literally right behind a person on roller blades who was wearing those full over-the-ear music phones and he still didn't hear my Airzound..... I don't feel the least bit bad startling them when I pass.

As for liability, unless you are running a camera, it's your word against theirs, and I guarantee you two things: If they are litigious enough to go to court, they will lie their ass off, and the system is definitely biased against cyclists.
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Old 12-09-20, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Vintage Schwinn
Riders need to use their common sense and be ultra-cautious and certainly not exceed 7 or 8 MPH ( YES!!! only maximum of 7 to 8 mph !!) when within 100 feet of pedestrian traffic.
That's not what I'd call common sense. Really, within 100 feet? That would make bike commuting in a city center pretty much pointless, and cycling anywhere but nearly completely deserted areas would become a chore.
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Old 12-09-20, 06:34 PM
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rsbob 
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I carry an air horn, like sailboats use to alert bridge tenders to raise the bridge, to ward off mtn lions and black bears when I ride the trails on my mtn bike. I could certainly use that to alert non responding peds, but the 150 dB would deafen me and scare the scheisse out of them. What great fun.
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