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Paraffin waxed chain skips in freezing temperature

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Paraffin waxed chain skips in freezing temperature

Old 01-09-20, 05:13 PM
  #26  
Koyote
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Originally Posted by t1k
In an attempt to improve the chain skipping situation, I have removed the chain from the bike yesterday and worked every roller by hand to make sure it rolls freely. Took me good half of hour. But the chain is not stiff anymore. Didn't have time to do a test ride yet. Will report back if the skipping is reduced.
Yep, you sure are saving a lot of time.
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Old 01-09-20, 05:27 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Yep, you sure are saving a lot of time.
Ha-ha. Don't be so hard on me. We are cyclists and cyclists are kind to each other.

I'm still on the set up, experiment, find what works stage of chain waxing. I'm willing to spend considerable amount of time tinkering with waxing because I have a gut feeling that the waxing can work.

Of course I'm not going to be flexing the chain for half of an hour every week after waxing. Or maybe I will, the chain is so clean that I can watch a movie while flexing the chain (it's also so calming - free stress therapy).

Last edited by t1k; 01-09-20 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 01-09-20, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
For you waxers, how much of a difference is there from just using straight up Paraffin vs. Paraffin + PTFE? I will be undertaking this and have everything except the PTFE which is in transit (but has a crazy estimated delivery date of 1MAR).
I'm about to find out. I ordered a bag of generic small particle PTFE. It's cheap but, yeah, the shipping times are longer than we're accustomed to for most consumer products. Arrival time is estimated to be somewhere between late January and early February.

If I was in a hurry I'd have ordered it a couple of years ago when I first considered adding PTFE to Gulf wax in the crock pot. So I won't complain about the shipping now that I've finally decided.

A couple of years ago I'm not sure I was fit enough to appreciate a small difference in chain lubes. I might be now. But I'm thinking of entering the state time trial later this year and I'll take any affordable edge I can find, including chain lubes. Folks who've done the research claim the best values in marginal gains come from drivetrain efficiency, form fitting kit and helmet, an aero position on the bike, and lighter weight tubes, preferably latex (assuming we're already using decent tires). Hambini claims bearings are a significant factor too.

In contrast, low value gains that aren't cost effective include oversized pulleys for rear derailleurs, especially the fancypants ceramic stuff; aero frames; high profile rims or disc wheels. Yeah, they offer measurable advantages, but aren't cost effective compared with chain lube, latex tubes, aero kit and, most of all, core work to hold a more aero position on the bike longer.
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Old 01-09-20, 06:15 PM
  #29  
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Regarding the initial link stiffness in freshly waxed chains, that's common. Solutions include:
  • Flexing each link to free 'em up. Takes maybe a minute. The excess wax flakes off on the first ride.
  • As soon as it's cool enough to handle put the warm chain on the bike and give it a few spins.
  • For freshly waxed chains that I plan to save for later use, I'll roll 'em up while warm and stick 'em in a ziplock bag. They'll be flexible when I get around to installing the chains.
  • Additives to soften the wax. I've added scrap wax from scented candles. These include the same paraffin solvents some folks use on their chain wax. It's already in scented candles. And many scented candles burn inefficiently, leaving plenty of scrap. I heat it and pour it into the crock pot with the Gulf wax bars. Gotta watch the heat, though -- on high it'll smoke and can be annoying if you have respiratory issues, asthma or allergies as I do. I keep the heat low and run the stove's vent fan in the kitchen.
  • Incidentally, soft scented candle wax is also handy for smearing between squeaky spokes. One of my hybrids has black spokes that squeak when dry. Wax works better than oil or grease. Lasts about a month of frequent riding, or until the first good rain. Takes a minute to redo, no biggie.

The initial setup for chain waxing seems to be time consuming at first. But once it's set up it's very efficient for treating several chains per session. And the chains are much cleaner to handle. At worst a waxed chain that's been ridden for awhile will leave a smudge about like graphite from a pencil sharpener. It'll wipe off with a dry paper towel.
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Old 01-09-20, 09:24 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by canklecat
Regarding the initial link stiffness in freshly waxed chains, that's common.
I wonder how long do you keep the chain in the wax bath? Sounds like you pull the chain from the wax when it's still hot. Wouldn't the wax drips off the rollers?
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Old 01-09-20, 10:48 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C
I live in a town that liberally spreads a mixture of sand and salt. I've tried a lot of things and have found that if I have to ride through that sandy, salty slush a lot, my chain will be gritty and rusty by the end of the season. The main variable is the amount of that kind of weather, and how many times I remember to wipe off the chain. Fenders and chainguard help keep the bike nicer, but are not a panacea. The less steel on the bike, the less rust.

Last summer I finally built a dedicated winter bike, and simply put a pre-rusted chain on it. When I buy another chain, I'm going to try one of those galvanized ones from KMC.
That was winter life for me in Boston and Ann Arbor in my car-free days. My solution was to ride fix gear on a beater. Fix gear so 1) I had better control (standard vs automatic in auto terms) and 2) a drive train that worked with stiff links, even with completely frozen links. I'd just slide the wheel forward a bit to get chain slack back. I considered two frozen links ridable. Three and it was time to lube. Not elegant, not pretty, but in the worst of winter I could be living and not a slave to a bike.

Come spring, new chain, cog and chainring. (Also new rims and spokes. heavy 400 gram sewup rims would be random polygons after many hard pothole hits on low pressure tires. Spoke nipples would be corroded frozen. Glued on sewups don't care how non-roujnd your rims are or how many dents they have. Also rarely pinch flat as you achieve those new shapes.) Of course, come spring, I start riding my good bike and beater stays commuter and rainy day trainer (outdoors - we didn't have trainers, just rollers) but now on nice new wheels and a clean, smooth drivetrain. I'd enjoy it for 8 months, then winter would start again..

Ben
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Old 01-09-20, 11:49 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by t1k
I wonder how long do you keep the chain in the wax bath? Sounds like you pull the chain from the wax when it's still hot. Wouldn't the wax drips off the rollers?
I usually leave the chain in the melted wax for a few hours and occasionally stir it around inside the pot to try to get wax into the crevices and bearing surfaces.

I fish it out with a hooked tool and hang it to drip excess wax back into the crock pot. Unless I lose track of it for an hour or longer, it'll still be warm and flexible when I'm ready to put it back on the bike.

And I'll usually wipe off the excess wax using a dry paper towel.
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Old 01-10-20, 09:11 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by canklecat
I'm about to find out. I ordered a bag of generic small particle PTFE. It's cheap but, yeah, the shipping times are longer than we're accustomed to for most consumer products. Arrival time is estimated to be somewhere between late January and early February.

If I was in a hurry I'd have ordered it a couple of years ago when I first considered adding PTFE to Gulf wax in the crock pot. So I won't complain about the shipping now that I've finally decided.

A couple of years ago I'm not sure I was fit enough to appreciate a small difference in chain lubes. I might be now. But I'm thinking of entering the state time trial later this year and I'll take any affordable edge I can find, including chain lubes. Folks who've done the research claim the best values in marginal gains come from drivetrain efficiency, form fitting kit and helmet, an aero position on the bike, and lighter weight tubes, preferably latex (assuming we're already using decent tires). Hambini claims bearings are a significant factor too.

In contrast, low value gains that aren't cost effective include oversized pulleys for rear derailleurs, especially the fancypants ceramic stuff; aero frames; high profile rims or disc wheels. Yeah, they offer measurable advantages, but aren't cost effective compared with chain lube, latex tubes, aero kit and, most of all, core work to hold a more aero position on the bike longer.
Let me know when you get it and how long it actually took. I bet I ordered it from the same place as you in China. I'm still debating if I want to wait or do a straight up paraffin wax job in the interim.

To others asking questions about waxing. You need to watch the most current video from OZ CYCLIST (youtube). He has several videos that go back a ways from when he was experimenting and perfecting the technique. The latest video covers the benefits of PTFE and why it is unnecessary for other additives, how long to leave the chain in, when to take it out, and how to loosen the links (which takes a minute).
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Old 01-10-20, 06:13 PM
  #34  
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Regarding the Oz Cyclist's videos on waxing chains -- I've said this before in other similar threads but my only concern is his sometimes cavalier handling of gasoline (petrol). Open containers near ignition sources -- ordinary electrical outlets visible at his work bench, various electrical devices nearby.

Don't do that. Otherwise, his info seems fine.

But it's really not novel or original. He's only confirming info from earlier Friction Facts experiments, and adding a personal touch with videos for folks who find it easier to learn from video tutorials than reading articles and charts.
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Old 01-10-20, 10:19 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by canklecat
Regarding the Oz Cyclist's videos on waxing chains -- I've said this before in other similar threads but my only concern is his sometimes cavalier handling of gasoline (petrol). Open containers near ignition sources -- ordinary electrical outlets visible at his work bench, various electrical devices nearby.

Don't do that. Otherwise, his info seems fine.
I agree and avoid dealing with petrol. I replaced the petrol bath with a mineral spirits bath when cleaning the chain. If I manage to move all my bikes to using wax instead cain lube, then I wouldn't have to keep and use mineral spirits either. Citrus degreaser will do for hubs, bb and headset maintenance.
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Old 01-12-20, 03:19 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by t1k
I think that by liquid paraffin you are referring to paraffin oil. The paraffin based oil is sometimes marketed as lamp oil. But there's another product called lamp oil, which is kerosene based.

It's quite hard to find the paraffin oil locally. But I'll order it online and experiment with mixing the oil with the paraffin.

I really want to make the chain waxing work in winter
A bit late, but hope it still helps - that's correct I meant the paraffin based oil, but it often gets confused with kerosene for the lamps. More specifically I thought you would have good chance in a pharmacy because it is also used to make creams. Not sure about Canada, but it is rather inexpensive. Easy to distinguish it from kerosene - based anything is that it has virtually no smell. You can also check out the wiki if you are into chemistry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_paraffin_(drug)

I was going to mention Oz Cyclist videos, but just seen someone had done so already. Just note he had been experimenting with different mixing 2 years back and now.


He has since changed his mix and uses PTFE powder completely replacing the liquid paraffin. But then he never gets sub-zero temperature over there I guess.


I have not tried PTFE myself, but wax alone without liquid paraffin did not work for me in anything under 10 degrees Celsius.

And neither am I a fan of inhaling petrol fumes (or even kerosene although much better option), but once using the wax + paraffin the cleaning I usually do is water + degreaser and let the chain heat up in that before rinsing, drying and rewaxing. I actually use some basic nail wax heater from ebay and it's just fine, not leaving the chain in more than 10-15minutes, the sweet spot for pulling it out is around 52 Celsius. That way the wax does not freely flow out anymore and there is not that much excess on the link plates either to clean off.

A small note at the end - you may want to check the chain itself well. I once had waxed chain skipping only to discover hairline crack in one of the link plates and another time it was actually a quicklink which was not well lubricated causing it.

Last edited by am8117; 01-12-20 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 01-12-20, 04:01 PM
  #37  
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I’ll be really interested to hear how your experiments go. I’m in Calgary too and have been thinking about waxing my chain this year after the soupy salty mix happening over the last couple of months. Next week’s drop will be a good test!
My commuter is a beater with fixed gear which is much simpler to clean up though. Good luck about your experiments and keep us informed of the performance.
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Old 01-12-20, 04:24 PM
  #38  
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You need to be careful using the word "paraffin" beyond wax as it means different things in different areas. One person's mineral oil is another person's kerosene
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Old 01-12-20, 05:13 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by avrilboazmoss
A bit late, but hope it still helps - that's correct I meant the paraffin based oil, but it often gets confused with kerosene for the lamps. More specifically I thought you would have good chance in a pharmacy because it is also used to make creams. Not sure about Canada, but it is rather inexpensive. Easy to distinguish it from kerosene - based anything is that it has virtually no smell. You can also check out the wiki if you are into chemistry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_paraffin_(drug)

I was going to mention Oz Cyclist videos, but just seen someone had done so already. Just note he had been experimenting with different mixing 2 years back and now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXuWxehSl-s

He has since changed his mix and uses PTFE powder completely replacing the liquid paraffin. But then he never gets sub-zero temperature over there I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHr9znwpwmQ

I have not tried PTFE myself, but wax alone without liquid paraffin did not work for me in anything under 10 degrees Celsius.

And neither am I a fan of inhaling petrol fumes (or even kerosene although much better option), but once using the wax + paraffin the cleaning I usually do is water + degreaser and let the chain heat up in that before rinsing, drying and rewaxing. I actually use some basic nail wax heater from ebay and it's just fine, not leaving the chain in more than 10-15minutes, the sweet spot for pulling it out is around 52 Celsius. That way the wax does not freely flow out anymore and there is not that much excess on the link plates either to clean off.

A small note at the end - you may want to check the chain itself well. I once had waxed chain skipping only to discover hairline crack in one of the link plates and another time it was actually a quicklink which was not well lubricated causing it.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I have decided to wait with adding paraffin oil. Instead I have flexed the chain by hand and made sure that there were no stiff links.
I have test ridden the bike this morning. it was very cold: -24C (-11F), -35C(-31F) with windchill. The chain skipping was gone. But I had another problem - the grease in the freehub "froze" and the freehub stopped engaging consistently. Resulting in pedals spinning freely every time I try to pedal after coasting. The hub would eventually engage but I think that it wasn't engaging fully. Because of the freehub issue, I didn't try to go fast and decided to turn around to not get stranded.
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Old 01-13-20, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by avrilboazmoss
......but once using the wax + paraffin the cleaning I usually do is water + degreaser and let the chain heat up in that before rinsing, drying and rewaxing
So you have found that you still needed to use degreaser beyond just hot water?
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Old 01-13-20, 12:06 PM
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That would be because I mix in the liquid paraffin (see above to avoid confusion with kerosene) which is greasy, but it’s nothing like usual muck, a drop of dishwashing liquid is just fine. The reason I do that is that dust and sand mixes into the oily wax and that washes is out altogether. Otherwise every rewaxing would contaminate the clean wax a bit more at a time until it essentially turns black which defeats the purpose.
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Old 01-13-20, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by t1k
Although it might look like chain waxing is a lot of trouble, it simpler than using wet lube ... in my opinion anyway.

Yes, initial cleaning and setup is a lot of work. The chain has to be cleaned to the bare metal and one needs to buy a crock pot and paraffin.
Originally Posted by t1k
In an attempt to improve the chain skipping situation, I have removed the chain from the bike yesterday and worked every roller by hand to make sure it rolls freely. Took me good half of hour. But the chain is not stiff anymore. Didn't have time to do a test ride yet. Will report back if the skipping is reduced.
So how much time and hassle is wax lube again?
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Old 01-13-20, 02:24 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by trailangel
So how much time and hassle is wax lube again?
It takes time an hassle to find the waxing method that works for me. I think that I'm close to finding the solution that works.
The routine waxing will be infrequent, clean and quick ... and I won't have to hate myself when throwing away bunch of greasy paper towels after each chain lubrication.
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Old 01-13-20, 02:57 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Cibi42
I’ll be really interested to hear how your experiments go. I’m in Calgary too and have been thinking about waxing my chain this year after the soupy salty mix happening over the last couple of months. Next week’s drop will be a good test!
My commuter is a beater with fixed gear which is much simpler to clean up though. Good luck about your experiments and keep us informed of the performance.
Are you going to be commuting this week? You're a brave soul.
My freehub is getting sticky in this cold (it was fine down to -20C). I'll have to remove it, clean and lube with some lighter oil.
That's my excuse to not ride in this cold

Fixed gear is a smart choice for the Calgary weather, but all my bikes are geared.

Last edited by t1k; 01-13-20 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 01-13-20, 11:23 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by t1k
Are you going to be commuting this week? You're a brave soul.
My freehub is getting sticky in this cold (it was fine down to -20C). I'll have to remove it, clean and lube with some lighter oil.
That's my excuse to not ride in this cold

Fixed gear is a smart choice for the Calgary weather, but all my bikes are geared.
this morning wasnt actually too bad, i was a bit worried and got over prepared, ended up too warm despite the -33 wind chill ;-)

i repacked my wheels this season with cold weather grease (i think it’s supposed to work till -50) as last year i really noticed how much stickier the hubs were pass -20. On the way back tonight the hubs were getting a bit slow and pedaling was certainly more work than usual but still moving.
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Old 01-14-20, 07:11 PM
  #46  
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Bike mechanic (7 years full time in a pro shop) and 12 year Calgary winter commuter - KMC rust resistant chains and Prolink chain lubricant are my top recommendations for the conditions here. And some Tri-flow for derailleur and brake pivots.

But also: TAKING THE BUS when it's minus freaking thirty. NOTHING works the same way at -30 as it does at +10, and the weather here swings from one to the other too quickly to make it realistic to try and repack bearings etc.

Frozen freewheels are usually from water getting inside; frozen freehub bodies are sometimes water, sometimes the grease thickening in the cold.

Chain skipping in the cold that resolves once warmed up: I look at the freewheel/freehub; derailleur pivots; *shifter cable and housing* (bit of ice inside your housing will mess the shifting up and cause skipping); buildup of ice/snow/slush on derailleur or cassette.

Skipping that doesn't change once warmed up: chain wear; stiff link(s); rust in freehub/freewheel; seized derailleur(s); seized cable(s); bent derailleur hanger; cracked frame (I have seen so many rust through at the drive side chainstay)...

(Off topic - I am almost certain I built t1k's e-bike!)
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Old 01-15-20, 06:59 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Buglady
(Off topic - I am almost certain I built t1k's e-bike!)
Small world! Yes, you did build my e-bike, indeed. And you also gave me some great tips on the e-bike use and maintenance when we spoke on a phone
Thank you, so much for all the help. The e-bike is my to go commuter and I love it.

Originally Posted by Buglady
Bike mechanic (7 years full time in a pro shop) and 12 year Calgary winter commuter - KMC rust resistant chains and Prolink chain lubricant are my top recommendations for the conditions here. And some Tri-flow for derailleur and brake pivots.
What chain do you use for your e-bike? I assume e-bikes require stronger chains?
I'm curious what's your chain lubrication routine? Do you wipe the chain after lubrication? What do you do with greasy rugs?

Originally Posted by Buglady
But also: TAKING THE BUS when it's minus freaking thirty. NOTHING works the same way at -30 as it does at +10, and the weather here swings from one to the other too quickly to make it realistic to try and repack bearings etc.
Luckily (or unfortunately, depends how you look at it) I have a car and can just drive to work. I don't like driving, but on -30C days everyone drives so slow that the driving is somewhat enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Buglady
Frozen freewheels are usually from water getting inside; frozen freehub bodies are sometimes water, sometimes the grease thickening in the cold.
Have you ever experienced sticky freehub issues with your e-bike?

If it's the grease thickening issue, then I'll just ignore it. But if the sticking is due to the water in the freehub then I should do something to prevent rusting.

Last edited by t1k; 01-15-20 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 01-18-20, 03:04 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by t1k

The e-bike is my to go commuter and I love it.

What chain do you use for your e-bike? I assume e-bikes require stronger chains?

I'm curious what's your chain lubrication routine? Do you wipe the chain after lubrication? What do you do with greasy rugs?

Class 2 e-bikes (pedal assist up to 32 km/hr) don't really need massively overbuilt chains, in my opinion. But I am also a fairly conservative rider, so I don't put an enormous amount of torque through the drivetrain (road rider by training, so I tend to stay with high cadence/low torque; I generally use the Tour assist mode, for 120% of input, as well. I save the Turbo mode for the last bit of a nasty hill, or when I am riding into a 60kph head wind).


I replaced the original Shimano chain with a KMC cheapie in September, then replaced that a week ago when the horrendous amount of salt in the cycle tracks took its inevitable toll. I'm now torture testing one of the KMC "Rustbuster" chains with "EcoProTeq" coating. We will see. I am afraid my bike does *not* get a lot of attention at home, because I just roll her into the garage and knock the worst of the slush off. My drive unit doesn't allow backpedaling to spin the chain - the rear wheel has to be off the ground, and that's not really do-able for me at home. I take advantage of the power lift stand at work to clean the chain once a week or so (and that also solves the greasy rag issue).



Originally Posted by t1k
Luckily (or unfortunately, depends how you look at it) I have a car and can just drive to work. I don't like driving, but on -30C days everyone drives so slow that the driving is somewhat enjoyable.

I think driving is an entirely reasonable option when the weather does not allow cycle commuting. I'm not a purist; sure, I want to see more people using bikes more often, but I don't think it's the end of the world if people *occasionally* use their personal motor vehicles!


Originally Posted by t1k
Have you ever experienced sticky freehub issues with your e-bike?

If it's the grease thickening issue, then I'll just ignore it. But if the sticking is due to the water in the freehub then I should do something to prevent rusting.

I don't ride if it's colder than -20C (air temp) because I can't breathe (and wearing a mask makes me panic and hyperventilate; also not ideal), so I have not encountered conditions in which this might be an issue for me. But I would expect it's just a grease thickening issue. In a newer wheel that hasn't been (a) dunked in the river or (b) hit with a pressure washer, you are pretty unlikely to have significant water buildup or rust.
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Old 01-21-20, 12:25 PM
  #49  
pdlamb
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FWIW, I'd been bothered by grinding sound coming from one chain, so I took it off and waxed it this weekend. I'd forgotten how stiff the chain is -- makes installation easier in some respects (threading the Rder), and more difficult in others (quick link isn't quick to re-attach). I ended up flexing each link.

Back to the subject of the thread. No problems after three rides in the 20s (F). That thing is awfully quiet now, which was the point of the whole exercise. The wax was dark, so I'll want to scratch off top and bottom, but the dust that was trapped inside the chain is either gone or seriously muffled.

I think I did put a bit of transmission oil into the wax, way back when. That may have helped prevent stiff links. Or it may have just been warmer than OP, though it felt darn cold!
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Old 01-21-20, 02:10 PM
  #50  
t1k
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My waxing experience was mixed so far.
After I flexed each link and made sure that each pin/roller can spin freely, the skipping stopped. I went for a short ride (about 10 miles) on Sunday in -10C (14F). Then I commuted to work yesterday and again - no skipping, chain is quiet and the shifting is perfect. On my way from work it got warmer 2C (35F) and the chain got wet (but still stayed clean and quiet). So I decided to reapply the wax (not that the chain really needed to be waxed) to try the re-waxing routine.

I've put the chain in a metal strainer and rinsed it with hot boiled water. The water washed off the dirt and most of the wax from the chain plates. Then placed the chain in the crock pot with the paraffin wax. The wax at that point was still solid but I wanted the chain to heat with the wax.
Waited till the wax melted and then let the chain to sit in the hot wax for about 30 minutes. Pulled the chain from the wax (while the wax was still hot) and let the excess of the wax to drip. Flexed the links while the chain was still warm and reinstalled the chain on the bike.

Going to bed, I was feeling pretty good about myself

And then this morning on my commute to work the skipping came back. The chain was very stiff and noisy. It didn't skip very often, but it was still annoying and somewhat dangerous. I decided to turn around and take a car instead.
I was very upset at that point and didn't feel like I want to continue experimenting with waxing anymore. However, now when my emotions cooled down, I'm thinking I'll try to mix the paraffin with paraffin oil before giving up.

Last edited by t1k; 01-21-20 at 04:40 PM.
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