folder fanatic

In Copenhagen, cyclists are becoming more like pigeons most everywhere else. While the elderly seem for the most part to cycle still, the wanton F*** You cyclist to the flaky not too keen on watching out for others seems to become a problem even in the City Of The Cyclist:

".....Ullaliv Friis, 66, a retired city official who is the pedestrian association’s managing director, says she appreciates all this, but that there is a flip side. Many retirees and older people live in the row houses in a suburb north of the city center where she makes her home. The sidewalks have become risky for them, she says, because of stray cyclists. “The cyclist has taken over everything,” she said......-https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/14/world/europe/in-copenhagen-pedestrians-feel-squeezed-out-by-cyclists.html?sq=bicycles&st=Search&scp=11&pagewanted=all

Something to think about as we cyclists want to encourage more cycling in our own cities and towns. Is there an hidden price to be paid?

Or perhaps a way of rewarding positive behavior is the answer:

"......Over at City Hall, Mr. Rohl hears the pedestrians’ plaints, and says the city has taken measures to improve biker behavior. It occasionally sends out field workers, for example, stopping cyclists they see displaying exemplary behavior, like making proper hand signals or respecting pedestrians, and rewarding them with small boxes of chocolate....."-https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/14/world/europe/in-copenhagen-pedestrians-feel-squeezed-out-by-cyclists.html?sq=bicycles&st=Search&scp=11&pagewanted=all

This might work even here as I never met anyone who does not like chocolates!

Roody

For every pedestrian telling me to get off the sidewalk, there are a dozen motorists telling me to get on the sidewalk.

bragi

I suspect, based on this post, that bicycle advocates in western Europe must be recruited almost exclusively from among kindergarten teachers. If someone gave me chocolate for making proper hand signals, or obeying traffic laws that I'm supposed to obey anyway, or not killing old people on sidewalks, I would look askance at them, or maybe even be tempted to kick their ass.

Caretaker

Copenhagen isn't Western Europe anymore than Boston is the Eastern U.S.

jezmellors

sideWALK.

Ekdog

Isn't it pavement in your neck of the woods?

Caretaker

Footpath here.

trike_guy

That was a slightly useless article. I live in Copenhagen and bikes on sidewalks is not I problem I've noticed. Sidewalks are irritating to ride on compared to the bike path or main roadway because they are often textured (concrete slabs, bricks, or rougher pavement) and because they are very often are raised from the bike path or roadway. They are also closer to hedges and fences, which limits visibility including that of cars pulling out of driveways, and of course are randomly occupied by people. Its almost always easier to ride with cars than pedestrians. I'm not familiar with this particular place they speak of, but there must be an especially good localized reason for bikes to be on the sidewalks.

Bikes of course drive all the time in walking streets which can be irritating, but thats a separate issue and its got nothing to do with being too successful with bike usage.

Roody

I know pedestrians don't like getting hit by bikes, but would they prefer to get hit by the car that the bike is replacing?

jezmellors

Yes it is but the play on words wouldn't have worked. Lots of names actually, 20 miles down the road from me in Barnsley they call it the "causey-edge" (the edge of the causeway)

Pedaleur

Agreed. The scooters are way worse.

folder fanatic

To American way of thinking, yes your attitude is well justified. We are a punitive culture that controls it's citizens by brute force & incarceration masquerading as a loving whole lot of like minded democratic loving humans. Positive reinforcement smacks too much of a rather wimpy way of winning cooperation. I think that the European immigrants that generally migrated to this country were the rougher greedy ones that were too individualistic and were not orientated to or did not cooperated with group functions as a rule. And look carefully at over 200 years of this sort of behavior has bred. Not the sort of behavior a global leader should be with no single pay health insurance or a guaranteed basic standard of living (a supported welfare state or safety net, not a punitive privatized charity patchwork system) for all of it's citizens.

Copenhagen, Amsterdam and the rest of those cities & towns in Northern & Western European countries have attained this ideal a long time ago.

bragi

I think you've missed my point. I have no problem with positive forms of persuasion. I do, however, have a serious problem with gestures that are condescending, inapproriate to the intended audience, or annoyingly nanny-esque. I firmly believe that the vast majority of adults get pretty irritated when they are treated as if they were toddlers.

I-Like-To-Bike

At the very least, the rewards should be a Real Reward, not wimpy kiddy treats; free pizza and cold beer for instance.

Caretaker

Yes, I'm sure most adults don't like being treated like children.

However, your original point was made in the context of this article which IMO treats its readers as children. The whole theme of it is this brave individual standing up for pedestrian rights against official indifference. I think you will find most scandinavian countries have a well developed culture of social responsibility and this extends to cyclists and their behaviour. How they maintain this admirable culture may include the use of the carrot (chocolate coated) as well as the stick and perhaps outsiders can learn a little from this.

For a informed view of cyclist/pedestrian relations in Copenhagen I suggest you read the post by trike_guy who actually lives there.

Pedaleur

The idea that this is individual behaviour modification is a bit misguided. Really, it’s a way to draw attention/spread the message/raise awareness/pick your favorite cliche’. Most Danes I know don’t take themselves so seriously that they’d feel patronized, and most would be happy to get a box of chocolates, toss it in their flower-laced basket (or tuck it in their rack), and share it with everyone in the office.

Caretaker

Absolutely.

I doubt if there are 'kindergarten teachers' standing at intersections handing out chocolates every day of the week. More, get people talking and thinking about responsible cycling. If it works, what the hell, have a laugh, have a chocolate.

Booger1

It sounds like parents have the same problems raising kids there as most do here,lack of discipline.Were raising a generation of wild beasts.

There's no need for bribes.When I was a kid,there was a loaded shotgun leaning against the wall in the kitchen at all times.Guess what,none of us boys EVER touched that weapon without permission.You know why,because dad's coming home at some point.....and I won't be able to sit for a week if I do.

You disrespect me out in public,guess what,I'm not your parents and your not at home,your going to have a bad day.

Roody

If somebody stopped me adn said they noticed I was a careful and considerate cyclist, I would be pleases. If they also gave me some chocolate, I would be very pleased.

This is a way of informing people about bike rules and regulations. Presenting the information in a positive manner is probably just as effective as preaching about the no--nos.

gerv 

Ok ...........so someone from the mayor's office shows up on the street handing out beer to cyclists. Somehow this doesn't seem appropriate or even remotely likely.

However, if it did happen, I wouldn't say no...

Pedaleur

I'm guessing you've never been to Denmark. ;-)

cyclocello

ya, between a rock and a hard place. At least where I live, there is about 1 pedestrian every mile (except by the schools).

DrJerry

Originally Posted by gerv
Ok so someone from the mayor's office shows up on the street handing out beer to cyclists. Somehow this doesn't seem appropriate or even remotely likely.

However, if it did happen, I wouldn't say no... :grin:
When I was in Germany, our boss handed out beer after lunch. In Holland they have separate bicycle "roads" dating back years. One was recently modernised, was originally built by Napoleon and goes from Amsterdam to Paris.

trike_guy

Its the same problem with parents that have more money than time. However lets not blame the kids, in Denmark bikes generally disregard any traffic rule which is inconvenient; the solution to bikes riding on sidewalks must surely be to make it less convenient to ride there than some other place. Hopefully that means improving some other place.

Interestingly enough, in Denmark the police rarely seem to take interest in enforcing traffic rules for either bikes or cars, in fact the police are hardly visible out on the roads. Its impressive and perhaps instructive that things keep working well, except for perhaps a bike on a sidewalk here and there.

Pedaleur

While you can find scofflaws anywhere, I found the cyclists generally obeyed most laws -- certainly better than in the US. Not meaning to quibble -- just my observations in Odense (I rode little in Copenhagen).

Generally, they pick a week in the Fall where they have strict enforcement (announced in advance) where they'll pip you 500kr for anything and everything. I had a friend who got a ticket last year for riding in a crosswalk. The details are irrelevant, but at one point she asked, "So if this were next week, you wouldn't have ticketed me?"

To which the policeman answered, "Basically."