Maelochs

I do this but with RideWithGPS and for the same purpose.

One day I was watching my speed and thinking "I had better pick up the pace if I want a better average than last week" and realized I had no idea what the scenery looked like ... and I was passing through an area where the setting sun makes some nice colors through the trees.

I like to look at the data after the ride, but I don't care much. It is interesting but even a PR (very rare) doesn't do much for me.

I wholly respect the riders who ride for PRs .... just a different way of stroking, so to speak. For me, i like to ride while i am riding and save the maths for later.

DaveLeeNC

Speed matters. But on any given day it may or may not be a meaningful comparison with other rides. Surfaces vary. Elevation varies. Wind varies (and this can be a huge deal even with a constant wind and a loop course). If you want to know (for sure) "what did I do today?", power always answers that question. Speed might or might not on a given day.

dave

ps. And if your focus is riding position and efficiency, a given ride (power or not) probably won't answer that one.

Doge

Some of the fastest <70 year old fastest TT riders in the world are on record going measurement free in the event. Fabian said that, Taylor Finny rides free as does Cam Wurf (2X Kona record).
Then track requires Measurment Free. Would Wiggins have been faster with a PM? Don't know - he didn't have one.

This idea is not weird to the fastest. It seems to be weird on BF however and to folks that read books about it.

Seattle Forrest

Luckily if you have a power meter and free software, you can use the @RChung method to do your own wind tunnel testing any time you like. Position, clothing, you name it.

Seattle Forrest

I went crazy fast coming down from Barlow Pass, and that one time in my entire life when I had a tail wind. I was going slower than a grandmother up the road to Slate Peak. Because I have a power meter, I can compare my performance on both days and see whether this creatine stuff is working.

DaveLeeNC

Training without power and competing without power are very different things. What percentage of the starting TdF field do you think never uses power in training?

Dave

Doge

You are a very experienced cyclist, I expect you know well how you are doing without a device. As I posted, many say they can. The fastest say they can.

Doge

100% have it. Their coaches see it and then tell them what to do. I think a very small % use power to train personally.
In the race it is heavily used by the folks in the cars.

On the USA and 99% of those on this forum - it is mostly useless. Show me someone who trains and races with a PM, I'll show you someone who is faster and doesn't.

Seattle Forrest

The days when I'm fastest are usually the ones when I've been training a lot, and then took a couple days off. And that makes sense, right? Build a lot of fitness, taper a little. Those days, I feel like I'm not doing any effort at all. Says when I'm overcooked, I feel like I'm working really hard, but I'm not getting much for it.

Going by feel is just way less precise.

I use the numbers on the weights at the gym, too. I don't know anybody who doesn't. Do you?

DaveLeeNC

This is an argument? How about "show me somebody with n inches of extra fatroll around their belly and I will show you someone with n+1 inches of fatroll around their belly who is faster, proving that extra fat doesn't matter.

This is not an argument (IMHO). WAY/WAY too many variables at play.

dave

Doge

Yes. Everyone working under my kid's coach (former Mr. Olympia), so my kid, his friends (All <U18 Cat 1s). You hit my key point. Working to a number is less efficient than working to failure. The only number is resting HR and when you are ready to do it again. You might not be ready to work to fatigue on Wed if you did it on Mon (and road Tue).

I ask junior how many pull-ups he can do. He does not know. He does them holding plates in his legs because he works to fatigue, not a number. When he gets much above 12 reps, he goes to bigger plates.

These are 4-5 year old videos, but this was a (permission used for gym video) typical gym session.

Maelochs

So ... they don't know what the numbers on the plates mean? They don't know if they are adding 5 lbs or 25 lbs? And how do they count without using ... ummm .... what are those things called again?

MyTi

Ok so you did 100 miles in less than five hours...which means you'd have to average over 20mph for 100 miles.....solo. If you told me it was a group, I'd believe you, but solo? For a strong tour rider sure, they can do it...but some 70 year old dude...no.

The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh.

Doge

Not really. I know a lot of fast riders. I know how they train. Many punished it in videos.
I subscribe to train to fatigue give better results than train to a number. You don't stop when you hit the number. You stop when you can't go any more. Then you rest. You don't rest a set amount of hours. You rest until the body's measurable indicators show you can train to fatigue again.

That is a very hard way to train. If you can do that, you will get greater gains than training to a number, be it power, HR or weights on the rack.

Seattle Forrest

lul wut

Why does he go to bigger and heavier plates when he needs to accomplish more work, instead of picking them at random? It's because measurements are useful. I can't believe we're debating whether a technology we've had for ten thousand years (numbers) is useful or not.

Doge

Pretty much. We had the gym girls sitting on the racks - they didn't want to be in the video and you don't ask them their weight.
Of course you know a range. We all know about how fast we can hold for an hour (FTP). We know that weight is going to be someplace X#.

This is a simple concept you buy it or you don't...

You pump your tires to what feels right, or you pump to a PSI (generally determined on what feels right).
Top runners don't have PMs. Cycling track riders (world records) don't have PMs. Those are racing, not training, but examples where numbers are not available to the athlete.
So in training why use a number to restrain yourself (a made up number) or to push yourself (also a made up number). Why not just do what your body will take.
Measure on the road how well you did by how fast you go when rested.

The point of training is to tear down without injury and then recover and build. Why stop if you could have done one more? Why over do it if not rested, warmed up or fatigued?
If you warm up well to avoid injury then...
A: do 10X fixed weight and stop as that is the number (could you have done more, did you do too much)?
OR
B: Just go until you can't finish. Fully rest and repeat (on another day).

A and B are different. I think B works better for max gain.

DaveLeeNC

I was 66 when I did it. Do you also want the power file?

https://www.strava.com/activities/444924309

dave

ps. The really strange route was picked to (mostly) avoid chipseal surfaces.

Seattle Forrest

Top runners have running watches that report pace, which on flat ground is the dining equivalent of power. They get upset when their watches do a bad job with it too. Runners use their pace for pacing like many cyclists use their PMs for pacing.

Doge

You could limit this to 50 or 20 years.
We are getting bigger faster stronger the last 10 years than the last 1,000. So I don't know why not debate it.
4 min miles are done by kids in HS now and nobody over a century ago did that. It is not PMs that made that difference (or wrist watch).
I am debating if the number matters at all. I have no video, but the pull-up example is best.
Do pull-ups. You don't know your exact weight, you just put plates or dumbbells between your feet.
Like pedaling cadence you have a pull-up cadence without a device to measure. You know 1/sec is too fast and 1/3sec is too slow.
Every 6 months or so do a test (real thing as that is juniors requirement). See who does better.

I always dadbrag about my son. I started this 70s with classmates. 90s with wife.
Here is my daughter (dadbrag) training to fatigue before we really started adding plates. I don't know how many plates we added. She went to fatigue, then added plates.


How high could she jump? Always high enough.

Doge

That is true. Are they looking at their watch to see how fast they should go, or looking to see how fast they did go?

canklecat

At the Giro this year, GCN asked several pros whether they raced to power. Most said no. As Doge said, most use it for training and the coaches monitor it during/after a race.

I can see how it might be useful during a time trial or extended solo breakaway. For pros and serious amateur racers.


But my body and subjective feel are pretty reliable gauges for me. It doesn't much matter what the data said about last week's ride at 75 degrees when I felt like half my age again. If the heat index is 111F today and my thyroid level is wonky again or my heart rate isn't behaving, I'm gonna go by my feels-like gauge.

I'm mainly interested in my fitness trends over time, so I check that via the Elevate extension for Strava.

Also, omitting the bike computer leaves more room for my Peruvian Pan flute on my handlebar. The faster I go, or the stronger the headwind, the better it sounds. That's pretty good motivation.

Doge

Just I can't find any that say they do. Several, such as Fabian said he didn't. I can't find Tony commenting online.
I know others that I have personal comments from. Just better to post those that have posted.
These two were easy to find. If you don't know who they are, then you really should not be arguing the point.

Taylor (no radio, no numbers ~2:30) "Be a slave to speed" - Cameron Wurf (2:04 - "...in Kona I didn't even have a power meter") -

DaveLeeNC

Regarding your statement "The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh."

I guess that I should add that the kids here have no idea what can and cannot be done, and should be paying more attention to their elders ... sigh"

dave

Seattle Forrest

They're looking at their watch to see how fast they're currently going in relation to how fast they should be going. If I try to take a marathon at my 10k pace, I'm gonna blow up before it's half over. This is very much like how cyclists use power meters for pacing.

DaveLeeNC

True story here. I ran the Boston Marathon the year that Rosie Ruiz "won" the event. I ran with a friend who was a tad faster than me. The pace felt really fast but somehow I did not see a mileage marker until the 10th mile. It was really crowded and I just didn't see any. I told my buddy "Jerry - this is too fast for me" and he said "hang in there - you are doing fine". I just ducked behind a group of guys and Jerry had no idea where I was so he stayed on his pace and I slowed down to mine (and just absolutely died the last 3 miles).

dave

ps. If Rosie had really run the race she said then she would have passed me somewhere in the last 3rd of the race. There were very few females in the race at that time and any time you were around a woman there would be this 'roar' that just followed you and her (followed her anyway). No way could she 'sneak around me'.