Straw poll: Vintage brakes that actually brake!
03-30-20, 06:30 AM
#26
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Exactly. Don't judge vintage brakes by their stopping "power" from the hoods. Vintage cables and many vintage brake blocks are also adequate from the drops.
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03-30-20, 08:14 AM
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Cheap poorly adjusted brakes are the only ones that scare me.
I am not a huge of D.P. brakes I think it takes too much effort to modulate your speed as they are simply meant to stop you on a pin head.
Properly tuned and with quality fresh pads/blocks any better quality brake should prove to adequate stopping power. After we rode with centerpull and single pivot brakes of all quality levels and I don't recall of hearing of too many serious accidents or deaths because of a lack of stopping power.
One of my favorite bakes, the beautiful and graceful Chorus brake was intended to modulate your speed rather simply stop you as fast as possible. It takes a very strong grip to get the wheels to lock up and I've only done it once or twice. For all there over engineering the vaunted CampI Delta brakes are designed with the same idea which is why people complained about the "Stopping Power" of them.
The beautiful and graceful Chorus Saphirino brake caliper
I am not a huge of D.P. brakes I think it takes too much effort to modulate your speed as they are simply meant to stop you on a pin head.
Properly tuned and with quality fresh pads/blocks any better quality brake should prove to adequate stopping power. After we rode with centerpull and single pivot brakes of all quality levels and I don't recall of hearing of too many serious accidents or deaths because of a lack of stopping power.
One of my favorite bakes, the beautiful and graceful Chorus brake was intended to modulate your speed rather simply stop you as fast as possible. It takes a very strong grip to get the wheels to lock up and I've only done it once or twice. For all there over engineering the vaunted CampI Delta brakes are designed with the same idea which is why people complained about the "Stopping Power" of them.
The beautiful and graceful Chorus Saphirino brake caliper
that is what I think makes the difference.
mafac’s can be set up to be very powerful, (shorten the straddle wire) with fresh pads - koolstop salmons, pretty good, mod housing and wires, better.
03-30-20, 08:18 AM
#28
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Cheap poorly adjusted brakes are the only ones that scare me.
I am not a huge of D.P. brakes I think it takes too much effort to modulate your speed as they are simply meant to stop you on a pin head.
Properly tuned and with quality fresh pads/blocks any better quality brake should prove to adequate stopping power. After we rode with centerpull and single pivot brakes of all quality levels and I don't recall of hearing of too many serious accidents or deaths because of a lack of stopping power.
One of my favorite bakes, the beautiful and graceful Chorus brake was intended to modulate your speed rather simply stop you as fast as possible. It takes a very strong grip to get the wheels to lock up and I've only done it once or twice. For all there over engineering the vaunted CampI Delta brakes are designed with the same idea which is why people complained about the "Stopping Power" of them.
The beautiful and graceful Chorus Saphirino brake caliper
I am not a huge of D.P. brakes I think it takes too much effort to modulate your speed as they are simply meant to stop you on a pin head.
Properly tuned and with quality fresh pads/blocks any better quality brake should prove to adequate stopping power. After we rode with centerpull and single pivot brakes of all quality levels and I don't recall of hearing of too many serious accidents or deaths because of a lack of stopping power.
One of my favorite bakes, the beautiful and graceful Chorus brake was intended to modulate your speed rather simply stop you as fast as possible. It takes a very strong grip to get the wheels to lock up and I've only done it once or twice. For all there over engineering the vaunted CampI Delta brakes are designed with the same idea which is why people complained about the "Stopping Power" of them.
The beautiful and graceful Chorus Saphirino brake caliper
that is what I think makes the difference. Also impressive but not noted much are the mfg tolerances achieved by Campagnolo to make these calipers not be sloppy or bind up.
mafac’s can be set up to be very powerful, (shorten the straddle wire) with fresh pads - koolstop salmons, pretty good, mod housing and wires, better.
03-30-20, 09:00 AM
#29
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My favorites:
Suntour XC Pro- I was planning to replace the stock pads with Kool Stop Cross Pads- but these work very nicely.
IMG_0224 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
https://flic.kr/p/EXNuiW
Superbe Pro Brakes by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
https://flic.kr/p/231Tmt8
As far as sidepulls, I have a combination of 2 sets of tri-color 600 brakes on my Trek 400- single pivot in the rear and dual pivot in the front.
1986 Trek 400 Elance by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
https://flic.kr/p/22bqRBu
Suntour XC Pro- I was planning to replace the stock pads with Kool Stop Cross Pads- but these work very nicely.
IMG_0224 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickrhttps://flic.kr/p/EXNuiW
Superbe Pro Brakes by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickrhttps://flic.kr/p/231Tmt8
As far as sidepulls, I have a combination of 2 sets of tri-color 600 brakes on my Trek 400- single pivot in the rear and dual pivot in the front.
1986 Trek 400 Elance by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickrhttps://flic.kr/p/22bqRBu
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"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Last edited by The Golden Boy; 03-30-20 at 02:50 PM.
03-30-20, 10:51 AM
#30
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not sure I agree with that. If my brakes can’t be finger stopped from the hoods then they are going to replaced ASAP.
03-30-20, 11:13 AM
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03-30-20, 11:23 AM
#32
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I've never had a problem with my Suntour Rollercam rears and Pedersen SE fronts on my Cannondale.
03-30-20, 11:39 AM
#33
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Back when I was club racing (way back), I had a Serotta with SunTour Suprbe Pro calipers. I had no problems stopping with them. What I was impressed with, and gave me great confidence, is that I could scrub off minute amounts of speed as I was trying to keep the right distance from the rider in front of me. These calipers paired with the SunTour Superbe levers were absolutely great.
I don't doubt that the equivalent Campangnolo or Shimano Dura Ace would have be similar, however, I never got to experience them.
I don't doubt that the equivalent Campangnolo or Shimano Dura Ace would have be similar, however, I never got to experience them.
03-30-20, 01:30 PM
#34
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It just is what it is. Vintage brakes were not designed to finger stop from the hoods. That's fine for cruising around and casual stopping, but not for high speed descents.
03-30-20, 02:31 PM
#35
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The brakes on this Pro-Tour that I pulled from the trash (even with their 43-year-old pads) are some of the strongest and most-responsive that I've used an a road bike.
Note that the factory positioned the 610-length caliper arm pivots so as to maximize leverage (and to allow optional fitment of 700c rims still with plenty of leverage).
I did some off-roading on it yesterday (in steep, wet conditions) and was not left wanting for braking power.
Note that the factory positioned the 610-length caliper arm pivots so as to maximize leverage (and to allow optional fitment of 700c rims still with plenty of leverage).
I did some off-roading on it yesterday (in steep, wet conditions) and was not left wanting for braking power.
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03-30-20, 02:42 PM
#36
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One of the most surprising combinations I've ever run across - quite by chance - is a stamped aluminum Dia-Compe upright bar brake lever mated to any Campagnolo Record sidepull variant. Namely, this:
This International was a two-hour parts bin build that I had to throw together on a moment's notice. I never really believed in these stamped Weinmanns and Dia-Compes until this build, but one could argue this is the first time I'd ever mated one of those levers with a Campag sidepull (not even with stellar pads either). I've never experienced such a perfect balance of mechanical advantage, resistance, and modulation in a brake. Ever.
The Tektro dual-pivot in the back felt terrible with the same lever
-Kurt
This International was a two-hour parts bin build that I had to throw together on a moment's notice. I never really believed in these stamped Weinmanns and Dia-Compes until this build, but one could argue this is the first time I'd ever mated one of those levers with a Campag sidepull (not even with stellar pads either). I've never experienced such a perfect balance of mechanical advantage, resistance, and modulation in a brake. Ever.
The Tektro dual-pivot in the back felt terrible with the same lever
-Kurt
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03-30-20, 05:04 PM
#37
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I've been able to stop on a steep downhill without a problem when riding my vintage bicycle with Dura Ace AX brake sets, or when riding my bicycle that has the pre-index Shimano New 600EX brakeset.
Then again, all my brakes work well on my the bikes I ride. If the brakes didn't work well then I wouldn't ride that bike. LOL
Cheers
Then again, all my brakes work well on my the bikes I ride. If the brakes didn't work well then I wouldn't ride that bike. LOL
Cheers
03-30-20, 05:33 PM
#38
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Here's another outlier. This '42 CCM has a '50 AB hub. The bike weighs at least 50 lbs and I'm 235 lbs. This single, rear, cabled drum brake performs like I've got a pair of well-setup XT canti's . Modulates well or lays a patch like I'm 6 years old again. It defies science.
I'm going to build it into a better rim and then frame. It deserves it.
I'm going to build it into a better rim and then frame. It deserves it.
03-30-20, 06:28 PM
#39
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Mafac Racers are very good brakes. Early dual pivots (count 'em). Power, modulation and VERY forgiving of rim type and condition. Other brakes I have liked over the years - the Diacomp Grand Comps stock on the '76 Fuji Pro (much better if you actually wanted to stop than the universally used Campy NR in races of the day). Mafac cantilevers. Rode Alba Road above Santa Cruz on my brand new Mooney in a pacific winter storm. As wet as it comes. One fingered the first halt. Cold, wet hands and I had to go to two fingers for the second half. Knew after that descent that they were keepers. 11 years later, I picked up a Miyata 610 with Shimano cantis. Same geometry but a much nicer looking and to work on. Calipers got swapped. The Miyata is long gone but those Shimano cantis ride on.
I like dual pivots but I de-power them with V-brake levers. I like having my stops being event free when the grab for the brakes is fueled by adrenaline from a car brake light. (Dual pivots also bug me that to get the pads to hit simultaneously, you have to set the caliper up cocked to one side. Don't do that and the brake pushes your rim to the side every stop. Cycling's best kept secret? I've never heard it discussed, even by the most fanatic.
I set my Mafacs up as front brakes and use Weinmann (?, might be Diacomps - branded Schwinn approved) calipers in back. Does two things. The Weimanns are stiffer and have less power. Stiffer so running full length housing, front and back end up feeling the same and less power so less happens. Again, same squeeze, same results. (That's 50% squeeze, 50% usable power.) Also one set of Mafacs will stop two bikes. (Really easy to turn a rear Mafac or front Weinmann into the opposite. Just go to any hardware store and buy a metric bolt.)
Current (5) bikes - two with Mafac/Weinmann combos, one with cantis, two with dual pivots and V-brake levers. I'll go down anything on any of them.
Ben
I like dual pivots but I de-power them with V-brake levers. I like having my stops being event free when the grab for the brakes is fueled by adrenaline from a car brake light. (Dual pivots also bug me that to get the pads to hit simultaneously, you have to set the caliper up cocked to one side. Don't do that and the brake pushes your rim to the side every stop. Cycling's best kept secret? I've never heard it discussed, even by the most fanatic.
I set my Mafacs up as front brakes and use Weinmann (?, might be Diacomps - branded Schwinn approved) calipers in back. Does two things. The Weimanns are stiffer and have less power. Stiffer so running full length housing, front and back end up feeling the same and less power so less happens. Again, same squeeze, same results. (That's 50% squeeze, 50% usable power.) Also one set of Mafacs will stop two bikes. (Really easy to turn a rear Mafac or front Weinmann into the opposite. Just go to any hardware store and buy a metric bolt.)
Current (5) bikes - two with Mafac/Weinmann combos, one with cantis, two with dual pivots and V-brake levers. I'll go down anything on any of them.
Ben
03-30-20, 06:35 PM
#40
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The mid to late 80's Shimano SLR brakes are the best that I've ridden. I use the Exage Sport model and can pop wheelies at will.
The Dia Compe G500N brakes are meh. They'll stop you. Arms should be longer for more leverage.
The Weinmann 500 brakes are awful. They have a hard time stopping my 135lb body. Flexy garbage.
*I use modern housing with cartridge Kool Stop salmon pads. I also use Dura Ace inner cables. YMMV.
The Dia Compe G500N brakes are meh. They'll stop you. Arms should be longer for more leverage.
The Weinmann 500 brakes are awful. They have a hard time stopping my 135lb body. Flexy garbage.
*I use modern housing with cartridge Kool Stop salmon pads. I also use Dura Ace inner cables. YMMV.
03-30-20, 06:51 PM
#41
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...
Old school MAFAC centerpulls have plenty of power even compared to modern brakes, if that's your thing. Subjectively lots of brake power for not too much hand squeeze. And BTW, they worked just fine with the original pads BITD. The original pads worked about exactly as well as the modern Kool Stop blacks and felt very similar. Obviously after 50 years, any original rubber pads are useless.
...
With any vintage brake it's important to use 'vintage' technique. Braking with one or two fingers from the hoods is not going to cut it. Get in the drops. That's how it was done and it's still the best way. Technique matters.
Old school MAFAC centerpulls have plenty of power even compared to modern brakes, if that's your thing. Subjectively lots of brake power for not too much hand squeeze. And BTW, they worked just fine with the original pads BITD. The original pads worked about exactly as well as the modern Kool Stop blacks and felt very similar. Obviously after 50 years, any original rubber pads are useless.
...
With any vintage brake it's important to use 'vintage' technique. Braking with one or two fingers from the hoods is not going to cut it. Get in the drops. That's how it was done and it's still the best way. Technique matters.
My first year of racing (mid '70s) I was told to ride the drops anytime things got iffy - road conditions, fellow riders, traffic - so our serious braking was always from the drops. I still set my bikes up so I can ride them all day in the drops. If I have to brake hard from the hoods, I already screwed up. We also were told to ride the drops so if we hit something we didn't see - a fact of life riding in pelotons - so our hands stayed on the handlebars.
03-30-20, 08:33 PM
#42
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One of the most surprising combinations I've ever run across - quite by chance - is a stamped aluminum Dia-Compe upright bar brake lever mated to any Campagnolo Record sidepull variant. Namely, this:
This International was a two-hour parts bin build that I had to throw together on a moment's notice. I never really believed in these stamped Weinmanns and Dia-Compes until this build, but one could argue this is the first time I'd ever mated one of those levers with a Campag sidepull (not even with stellar pads either). I've never experienced such a perfect balance of mechanical advantage, resistance, and modulation in a brake. Ever.
The Tektro dual-pivot in the back felt terrible with the same lever
-Kurt
This International was a two-hour parts bin build that I had to throw together on a moment's notice. I never really believed in these stamped Weinmanns and Dia-Compes until this build, but one could argue this is the first time I'd ever mated one of those levers with a Campag sidepull (not even with stellar pads either). I've never experienced such a perfect balance of mechanical advantage, resistance, and modulation in a brake. Ever.
The Tektro dual-pivot in the back felt terrible with the same lever
-Kurt
03-30-20, 08:36 PM
#43
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-Kurt
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03-30-20, 09:54 PM
#44
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So you’re sayin’ the ride lasted almost as long as the video...
03-30-20, 10:55 PM
#45
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The old Zefal straight tube brake works... once. High maintenance, tho'.
03-30-20, 11:57 PM
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I have the Centaur gruppo and they are skeleton brakes. I really like them and i even have the campy cables. I have found them to have good stopping and modulation .👍
03-31-20, 08:26 AM
#48
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03-31-20, 08:50 AM
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I have Shimano Sante single pivot brakes on a 1989 Schwann Circuit. I’m generally not a fan of single pivot calipers, but these stop great!
03-31-20, 09:25 AM
#50
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That's kind of like saying if I can't just leave my '68 VW Beetle in one gear all the time like I do with my new Camry, I'm going to get rid of it.
It just is what it is. Vintage brakes were not designed to finger stop from the hoods. That's fine for cruising around and casual stopping, but not for high speed descents.
It just is what it is. Vintage brakes were not designed to finger stop from the hoods. That's fine for cruising around and casual stopping, but not for high speed descents.
I ride a few different vintage bikes in the city Seattle...huge hills) all the time and I’m totally confident of panic stopping on all of them. The only time my brakes failed me was when I tried to panic stop using suicide levers and I crashed into the side of a car that hooked me. Those levers came off the next day.
The worst brakes I’ve ever used were the long, modern Tektro side pull. I tried these and ended up going back to old centerpulls.