Mechanic work part of your resume as a cyclist
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I think this idea about advancing complexity is wrong. A brifter is no more complex than an old Sturmey Archer IGH to overhaul. Hydraulic brakes are mechanically very simple systems. Just because it's new tech that C&V is not familiar with doesn't mean it's different in kind from old tech.
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With a garage full of bikes and a crazy, wild, wind driven brush fire approaching, I was taking inventory of what to pack for possible first ever evacuation. Yeah, cats, pictures, passports, important documents, computer, but which bikes? With two cars, and all the other stuff, I decided on just two bikes, my '64 Legnano Roma Olimpiade, had since new, 55 years, my first race bike, old friend, college commuter, first bike to ride after a 20 year layoff, etc. The other bike is a relatively worthless '73 Raleigh Super Course that I built myself from a scrap metal, abandoned frame. My first ever build. I loved building it, learning as I went (lurking on BF). I have other vintage, modern carbon, but these two are my keepers. There is a lot to be said for wrenching your own bike together. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty, its worth it! The fire stopped a couple miles from us, no evac required ... this time, but the thought process was a a great exercise. The Legnano has 55 years of nostalgia and love behind it but the Raleigh has nostalgia that I created myself, only 3 years ago.
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Shimano really did not want you to dig into them. The plan was to add a gear by the time there was an issue and you would just upgrade.
(keep in mind that in Japan it gets more expensive to keep a car on the road as it gets older, fees, inspections, and the various criteria like no dents, crumpled sheetmetal push many cars off the streets, the Japanese auto industry is out of scale - but it is Designed that way)
Campagnolo did sell small parts, but there is a drop off for the early stuff now, and the tools/fixtures to make the work easier are expensive and hard to obtain.
(keep in mind that in Japan it gets more expensive to keep a car on the road as it gets older, fees, inspections, and the various criteria like no dents, crumpled sheetmetal push many cars off the streets, the Japanese auto industry is out of scale - but it is Designed that way)
Campagnolo did sell small parts, but there is a drop off for the early stuff now, and the tools/fixtures to make the work easier are expensive and hard to obtain.
When the bicycle boom crashed in 1975, it introduced a wave of competitiveness between companies and shops that has gone unabated. As shops fought for survival, one of the first things to be eliminated was the purchasing of small parts stock. Owners did not want their money tied up in a large inventory of parts that sat around collecting dust.
During the boom Shimano had offered just as large a range of small parts as Campagnolo. However, most stores simply didn't stock them. When shops didn't order the parts, Shimano gradually phased them out and started to change their design philosophy. With the introduction of SIS, Shimano started a phase of tamper-proofing their products. A product that could not be adjusted by the end consumer gave more consistent performance. It also saved shops money by reducing set-up time.
Campagnolo small parts had good availability well into the mid-1980s but that was primarily because most of the boom era parts still fit the newer components, which were minor improvements on the older components. Campagnolo finally introduced major re-designs circa 1985 and suddenly there was a major drop in small parts availability. They were still available, but with the exception of the larger shops, most shops didn't stock them and they had to be special ordered.
It's my understanding that even Campagnolo has succumbed to the non-rebuildable approach. None of their brifters offered in the past decade are rebuildable. Even for the earlier versions, most shops don't carry the small parts or offer rebuilding services. To send them off for a rebuild typically costs $100-$200 per lever.
So, Shimano just had a little more foresight into what the market wanted and was most financially advantageous. This is understandable given that they were supplying a much broader market spectrum than Campagnolo. With a narrower, high end skewed market and higher pricing, Campagnolo could afford to hold onto their philosophy a little longer.
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The beauty of C&V for me is that it is simple enough to work on, I have never thought of myself as particularly mechanically inclined but even I can can strip a C&V bike down to the frame and build it back up. I don't feel the need to learn how to work on discs, hydraulics or electronic shifting tech,
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They should be riding one of the N+1's even if not wrenching the out of service ride !
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I detest and rebel against the throwaway society. Until an electrical short in the power window circuitry forced me to replace it in August of this year, I was driving a 1996 Audi A4. I am still fixing it up as a fun classic, but I finally had to semi-retire it from active duty and replace it with something newer and more reliable.
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#33
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I have always worked on my own bike. I never had money to pay someone else to do it.
When I was younger, having both the time and energy to do so, I would ride a LOT. Before sealed bearings, I would repack bearings frequently, especially the headset, maybe once a month, as the grease got dirty quickly. I may have done it more than necessary, as it was also my hobby.
When sealed bearing appeared, I bought in ASAP. The Phil Wood sealed bottom bracket has only been removed once in 40 years. The sealed bearing rims I use have never been touched.
Even so, brakes need maintenance - oil and adjustments; chains need to be cleaned and lubed; leather seats need Proofide; tires need air.
When I was younger, having both the time and energy to do so, I would ride a LOT. Before sealed bearings, I would repack bearings frequently, especially the headset, maybe once a month, as the grease got dirty quickly. I may have done it more than necessary, as it was also my hobby.
When sealed bearing appeared, I bought in ASAP. The Phil Wood sealed bottom bracket has only been removed once in 40 years. The sealed bearing rims I use have never been touched.
Even so, brakes need maintenance - oil and adjustments; chains need to be cleaned and lubed; leather seats need Proofide; tires need air.
#34
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Many cyclists have a wide range of hobbies and while cycling is one, bicycle maintenance isnt one. That isnt a sign of a disposable society though.
It shouldn't be that people have the ability to repair everything around them, or else they are viewed as being part of the throw away culture.
Fixing items, regardless of if its done at home or in a shop, is the opposite of a disposable society.
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I see it as a bigger problem.
If you can't repair a thing, you're prisoner to the people who can. You pay them, so you can continue owning your thing. Granted, you could own the thing and just have it be broken, but increasingly these days, you'll be labeled and shamed as a "hoarder" if you have a lot of broken things lying around (earlier we called these people "tinkerers" or even "farmers" or "small businessmen" or "inventors"). Paying to continue owning a thing? That's not a lot better than renting the thing.
This is the mindset that drives the late-stage-capitalist long-game, to turn us all into renters instead of owners by making us feel as though renting a thing (paying a regular fee on a schedule) might be better than dealing with unpredictable service charges that crop up, seemingly at random if you don't understand how your thing works. It's good for the corporations, because harnessing us to monthly payments gives them a steady cash flow and deprives us of our agency to change our minds.
It's materially wasteful (new phone every two years; whole bikeshare fleets junked) and it shames a lot of perfectly good people (home mechanics and tinkerers), but that's what the free market does. And that's why I fight back. I fix my things and hold onto broken things until I get around to them. And I post about fixing things so that other people can, too. It makes me own my things, just a little bit more than otherwise. Activist ownership, I call it.
Right now in the USA, we're in a gray area, within which many young people are forced to rent instead of own: houses and cars are more rented than owned these days in urban areas, and now even cell phones and bikes live in the gray area between renting and owning. It's a dangerous thing.
People my age (30s) are right on the cusp of it. We had the opportunity to learn to repair our things. Most people younger don't seem to even know that they could learn this stuff, consigning it totally to the realm of the professionals. They're missing a whole DIY culture and lore that would tell them otherwise. Often I feel I am the only one left. There are other young people I know who can braze or weld or machine things, but in my experience it's mostly for making art. I'm cut off from those people too, because I lack the creative spirit. I only do this stuff to serve a practical purpose. I'm just a car guy, I'm just a bike guy, I'm not a "maker" and I don't need a "maker space".
So I say, repair your own stuff! Un-harness yourself from the financial treadmill, before it's too late for all of us. It is a form of resistance. Even less radically, if you want to pay someone to repair your stuff, at least understand what's going on, regardless of whether you tick off the repair person with all your questions. It gives you knowledge and it keeps them honest, strengthening the fabric of society.
And lest you call me old and crusty and stubborn (which would be ironic since I think I'm on the younger end of this subforum's age distribution), I'm slowly learning to code, so I can keep this up for my software as well.
Sorry if that was too political. I may regret posting this. I don't mean to offend anyone. Others have put out a similar self-repair manifesto.
If you can't repair a thing, you're prisoner to the people who can. You pay them, so you can continue owning your thing. Granted, you could own the thing and just have it be broken, but increasingly these days, you'll be labeled and shamed as a "hoarder" if you have a lot of broken things lying around (earlier we called these people "tinkerers" or even "farmers" or "small businessmen" or "inventors"). Paying to continue owning a thing? That's not a lot better than renting the thing.
This is the mindset that drives the late-stage-capitalist long-game, to turn us all into renters instead of owners by making us feel as though renting a thing (paying a regular fee on a schedule) might be better than dealing with unpredictable service charges that crop up, seemingly at random if you don't understand how your thing works. It's good for the corporations, because harnessing us to monthly payments gives them a steady cash flow and deprives us of our agency to change our minds.
It's materially wasteful (new phone every two years; whole bikeshare fleets junked) and it shames a lot of perfectly good people (home mechanics and tinkerers), but that's what the free market does. And that's why I fight back. I fix my things and hold onto broken things until I get around to them. And I post about fixing things so that other people can, too. It makes me own my things, just a little bit more than otherwise. Activist ownership, I call it.
Right now in the USA, we're in a gray area, within which many young people are forced to rent instead of own: houses and cars are more rented than owned these days in urban areas, and now even cell phones and bikes live in the gray area between renting and owning. It's a dangerous thing.
People my age (30s) are right on the cusp of it. We had the opportunity to learn to repair our things. Most people younger don't seem to even know that they could learn this stuff, consigning it totally to the realm of the professionals. They're missing a whole DIY culture and lore that would tell them otherwise. Often I feel I am the only one left. There are other young people I know who can braze or weld or machine things, but in my experience it's mostly for making art. I'm cut off from those people too, because I lack the creative spirit. I only do this stuff to serve a practical purpose. I'm just a car guy, I'm just a bike guy, I'm not a "maker" and I don't need a "maker space".
So I say, repair your own stuff! Un-harness yourself from the financial treadmill, before it's too late for all of us. It is a form of resistance. Even less radically, if you want to pay someone to repair your stuff, at least understand what's going on, regardless of whether you tick off the repair person with all your questions. It gives you knowledge and it keeps them honest, strengthening the fabric of society.
And lest you call me old and crusty and stubborn (which would be ironic since I think I'm on the younger end of this subforum's age distribution), I'm slowly learning to code, so I can keep this up for my software as well.
Sorry if that was too political. I may regret posting this. I don't mean to offend anyone. Others have put out a similar self-repair manifesto.
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#36
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You have corrupted what the word 'prisoner' means. Even in the loosest sense, if the person doesnt feel trapped or confined by the circumstances, then they arent prisoner to the people fixing the broken items.
Where the argument falls short is that there has been specialization in our economy for decades. Heck- centuries.
Blacksmith, lawyer, doctor, teacher, farmer, furniture building, etc- all have existed for centuries in our economy because specialization creates improved quality and production.
Sure people can do some things in present days, but if their time and/or money is best spent by paying someone else for their abilities and knowledge, how is that a bad thing?
I change the brakes on my cars, but didnt attempt to change the alternator that broke a few weeks ago because I do not have the setup or experience. My time is better spent elsewhere.
Same for many people when it comes to plumbing, hvac, roofing, laptops, etc etc.
Our service economy runs on employing others with specialization in skill.
I dont rent my HVAC system just because its serviced once a year. Come on.
#37
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All I wanted to do was make a case that with the decline of DIY culture comes an opportunity for robber barons to step in, and I see it happening among my peers. They're scared to own things at least in part because they don't know how the things work, and they think I'm crazy or counterculture for trying to know.
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Come on, yourself! None of us self-repair activists are going to violate the sanctity of the relationship you have with your furnace repair guy. I thought I made my position on that clear enough toward the end of my post, but unfortunately you got hung up on the first sound bite.
All I wanted to do was make a case that with the decline of DIY culture comes an opportunity for robber barons to step in, and I see it happening among my peers. They're scared to own things at least in part because they don't know how the things work, and they think I'm crazy or counterculture for trying to know.
All I wanted to do was make a case that with the decline of DIY culture comes an opportunity for robber barons to step in, and I see it happening among my peers. They're scared to own things at least in part because they don't know how the things work, and they think I'm crazy or counterculture for trying to know.
#39
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All I wanted to do was make a case that with the decline of DIY culture comes an opportunity for robber barons to step in, and I see it happening among my peers. They're scared to own things at least in part because they don't know how the things work, and they think I'm crazy or counterculture for trying to know.
The local mechanic, my furnace guy, and the plumber we sometimes call are Robber Barons?
<insert the Inigo Montota meme here>
I really want to get on board with the idea(s) you put forth because I dont actually disagree with the general view, but then it just gets too over the top with claims of being a prisoner, renting what I own, and service techs being robber barons.
Pretty sure this is where I should see my way out so as to not further derail the thread.
#40
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In many ways, DIY culture is much greater than it ever was. With the internet, it's pretty easy to find step by step instructions to fix or build just about anything.
So many people are brewing their own beer these days. House flipping is everywhere. Youtube is loaded with videos on woodworking, forging, molding, brazing, you name it.
Whether or not people want to do these things depends on other factors. How much does one's arm have to be twisted to do something that looks like work? Some work I like. Some, I don't. Plumbing and drywall suck! I'd rather pay a guy or gal. Framing, building, fixing bikes, I got it.
Choices.
So many people are brewing their own beer these days. House flipping is everywhere. Youtube is loaded with videos on woodworking, forging, molding, brazing, you name it.
Whether or not people want to do these things depends on other factors. How much does one's arm have to be twisted to do something that looks like work? Some work I like. Some, I don't. Plumbing and drywall suck! I'd rather pay a guy or gal. Framing, building, fixing bikes, I got it.
Choices.
#41
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Robber Barons?
The local mechanic, my furnace guy, and the plumber we sometimes call are Robber Barons?
<insert the Inigo Montota meme here>
I really want to get on board with the idea(s) you put forth because I dont actually disagree with the general view, but then it just gets too over the top with claims of being a prisoner, renting what I own, and service techs being robber barons.
Pretty sure this is where I should see my way out so as to not further derail the thread.
The local mechanic, my furnace guy, and the plumber we sometimes call are Robber Barons?
<insert the Inigo Montota meme here>
I really want to get on board with the idea(s) you put forth because I dont actually disagree with the general view, but then it just gets too over the top with claims of being a prisoner, renting what I own, and service techs being robber barons.
Pretty sure this is where I should see my way out so as to not further derail the thread.
EDIT: I hate politics. I will see myself out as well. I don't know what I was thinking.
Originally Posted by iab
I think you are hanging out with the wrong people.
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Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Last edited by scarlson; 10-27-19 at 09:30 PM.
#42
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Naw, keep going - this thread has been a long, slow troll right out of the gate...
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As long as it does not have a chip or computer in it...I am comfortable "trying" to fix it, and 9 times out of 10 I am successful...that last 10% I blame on the weather!
Best, Ben
Best, Ben
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#45
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Thanks for the nudge. I’m resistant to learning new things, just like a lot of folks on here. Once I do it successfully I wonder (and ask others) - “why was I waiting so long?”
I’m actually really stoked about having a hydraulic disc road bike. Hopefully it will be out for its maiden voyage soon.
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#46
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I think that everyone has a place where they are comfortable with a technology and have to give themselves a nudge (or not) to push to into a new variation
Indexed shifting is an example for me. It took me a while to get comfortable with tuning for good shifts.....and get the front derailer set up is still a pain, but I am glad I learned it
I like to maintain what I can both at home and on bikes but there are limits some time, some skill, and some just being cost effective. Bike example I had BB that was going in really poorly, so I took it to my LBS and he chased and faced the BB. I would love to do that, but can't justify the tools and don't have the volume needed for critical mass.
In the last month I have replaced sink faucets and fixed leaking copper pipe to the hot water heater (and solder the check valve in the wrong way so I have to redo it) but have a roof guy coming in to do repairs. that I might be able to do but don't want to risk them done wrong
I don't see any problem with being able to learn how to maintain either Di2 or hydraulic disk brakes should I ever decide to use them though hydraulic disk seem more fussy than you would expect based on posts in Mechanics. it is just researching and reading up front and accepting it will take time and I will probably learn a bit by goofing up
AS to DIY in general, IMHO it depends on the person and situation. even growing up in small town in montana years ago, I fixed my bike and tires, others would go to the gas station to get their tubes fixed. My dad was a huge DIY guy, but would not change the oil in the car because even though he had been a car mechanic he hated mechanicing (building in wood was another story)
I have a sone who is senior in college, he is not terribly hands on despite all my efforts, until necessity raises it's head..... he texted, pretty proud, after he changed the light bulb in his car (which is a pin to change) by himself for the first time.
as to the more political side, he had an economics professor state renting was a good way to go even if you could buy a house as then you can live life and not worry about repairs. My son came home steamed at the stupidity of that.
Indexed shifting is an example for me. It took me a while to get comfortable with tuning for good shifts.....and get the front derailer set up is still a pain, but I am glad I learned it
I like to maintain what I can both at home and on bikes but there are limits some time, some skill, and some just being cost effective. Bike example I had BB that was going in really poorly, so I took it to my LBS and he chased and faced the BB. I would love to do that, but can't justify the tools and don't have the volume needed for critical mass.
In the last month I have replaced sink faucets and fixed leaking copper pipe to the hot water heater (and solder the check valve in the wrong way so I have to redo it) but have a roof guy coming in to do repairs. that I might be able to do but don't want to risk them done wrong
I don't see any problem with being able to learn how to maintain either Di2 or hydraulic disk brakes should I ever decide to use them though hydraulic disk seem more fussy than you would expect based on posts in Mechanics. it is just researching and reading up front and accepting it will take time and I will probably learn a bit by goofing up
AS to DIY in general, IMHO it depends on the person and situation. even growing up in small town in montana years ago, I fixed my bike and tires, others would go to the gas station to get their tubes fixed. My dad was a huge DIY guy, but would not change the oil in the car because even though he had been a car mechanic he hated mechanicing (building in wood was another story)
I have a sone who is senior in college, he is not terribly hands on despite all my efforts, until necessity raises it's head..... he texted, pretty proud, after he changed the light bulb in his car (which is a pin to change) by himself for the first time.
as to the more political side, he had an economics professor state renting was a good way to go even if you could buy a house as then you can live life and not worry about repairs. My son came home steamed at the stupidity of that.
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(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#47
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Before YouTube, I had Magura rim brakes and managed to properly assemble them without issues. Also done half a dozen different cars and trucks. I'm pretty sure I could handle maintenance on a hydro disc or suspension system if I had either.
25 years ago, I dug into a Sachs 3x7 hub to get a broken shift chain out. My teenage brain didn't have the focus to put it back together. And that is the story why I painted my Proflex black and put a front derailleur back on it during my senior year.
I'm honestly more worried about screwing up something old. Like a French headset or dropping bb's from a freewheel all over the floor or something like that with limited spare parts.
25 years ago, I dug into a Sachs 3x7 hub to get a broken shift chain out. My teenage brain didn't have the focus to put it back together. And that is the story why I painted my Proflex black and put a front derailleur back on it during my senior year.
I'm honestly more worried about screwing up something old. Like a French headset or dropping bb's from a freewheel all over the floor or something like that with limited spare parts.
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#48
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I want to experience the success and the failure of implementing it. I want to memorize what size Allen or Torx bits that are needed. I want to cut the hydraulic hose to length for my size bike frame. I'm willing to wait in order to get it right while doing it myself.
This is apparently not how it is done today when buying the most current super disc bikes that are ready to go. I've got a lot more to say about it but that's it for now...
This is apparently not how it is done today when buying the most current super disc bikes that are ready to go. I've got a lot more to say about it but that's it for now...
#49
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The beauty of C&V for me is that it is simple enough to work on, I have never thought of myself as particularly mechanically inclined but even I can can strip a C&V bike down to the frame and build it back up. I don't feel the need to learn how to work on discs, hydraulics or electronic shifting tech,
But hydraulic disc disc is such a game changer. Getting over the hump and assembling a Shimano integrated hydraulic shift/brake levers has become mandatory for me. For my first disc frame (I have 2 ! ) I need to run either the: ST-RS685’s or the Dura Ace ST-R9120’s. Neither of these are Di2 BTW.
I’ll most likely start with the (Ultegra level I’m told) ST-RS685’s. I plan on running a different color brake hose just to make my build a little more unique. As far as I can tell Jagwire universal or even mountain bike spec brake hose should be compatible for road disc so long as the right barbs, banjos, etc are used to mate with the Shimano calipers.
#50
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While some bicycle tech has not taken hold and therefore died off due to lack of support, there is very little actual planned obsolescence.
*7sp drivetrains are still used on bikes*, so 8-11 will be around for a long time.
Cable shifting and braking isnt going anywhere.
There are a ton of bottom bracket designs, and aftermarket companies provide replacements and conversions for even old inferior tech. Heck, new good quality square taper bottom brackets are readily produced for low prices.
Sometimes I see 26" mtb wheels being referenced as evidence of 'planned obsolescence', and I think that those people dont understand what the word means. No brands planned 40 years ago to phase out 26" wheels- it happened organically. And even then- 26" tires and rims are still available in low end and quality models.
When planned obsolescence in cycling is discussed I often see this in my mind.
*7sp drivetrains are still used on bikes*, so 8-11 will be around for a long time.
Cable shifting and braking isnt going anywhere.
There are a ton of bottom bracket designs, and aftermarket companies provide replacements and conversions for even old inferior tech. Heck, new good quality square taper bottom brackets are readily produced for low prices.
Sometimes I see 26" mtb wheels being referenced as evidence of 'planned obsolescence', and I think that those people dont understand what the word means. No brands planned 40 years ago to phase out 26" wheels- it happened organically. And even then- 26" tires and rims are still available in low end and quality models.
When planned obsolescence in cycling is discussed I often see this in my mind.
Interestingly enough, Sram released just this year a 7 speed downhill MTB drivetrain.
And OneUp Components has a fancy looking dork disc for you to "Upgrade your downhill bike to a 7 speed DH specific drivetrain"
I haven't read up all that much about why exactly downhill MTBs are going down to 7 speeds, but they are touting 2 tooth jumps so that you don't have to double-shift in order to find the right gear. I suppose with how dynamic downhill MTB is they don't want or need 1 tooth jumps like roadies typically do. I also don't know if the cog spacing is the same as the C&V 7 speed, but it at least emphasizes your point that going from 7-8-9-10-11-12 wasn't necessarily planned obsolescence, it was just people trying new things and refining the tech. Roadies liked the narrow tooth jumps, downhill MTB'ers didn't. So now 7 speed is making a comeback in popularity.