Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Commuting
Reload this Page >

Noticeable downside to 32mm over narrower tire

Search
Notices
Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

Noticeable downside to 32mm over narrower tire

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 03-09-20, 03:55 PM
  #26  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,498

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7345 Post(s)
Liked 2,452 Times in 1,430 Posts
The Conti GP tires don't have much puncture resistance, and I like them like that, because they sure do ride great. It's rather unbelievable, in fact. I have the GP4000S-II in 28mm on my McLean which I think is the widest tire it will take.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Likes For noglider:
Old 03-09-20, 05:14 PM
  #27  
davei1980
Very Slow Rider
 
davei1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: E Wa
Posts: 1,274

Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked 132 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by noglider
The Conti GP tires don't have much puncture resistance, and I like them like that, because they sure do ride great. It's rather unbelievable, in fact. I have the GP4000S-II in 28mm on my McLean which I think is the widest tire it will take.
Are you rolling latex inner tubes? I had them in the set of tubulars I had for a while.....
davei1980 is offline  
Old 03-09-20, 05:51 PM
  #28  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,834

Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2337 Post(s)
Liked 2,810 Times in 1,534 Posts
FWIW

I have GP5000 28mm with cont race lite tubes for my commute and other riding (mostly commute ) and have 0 flats at 500 miles but is great when i had like 7 flats on 650 miles on Corsa Gs

I have no experience with tubeless, other than reading the all the issues people have in the mechanics forum which suggests if you go that way got tubeless specific rims and match the tires to the rim. everything I read (and manufacturer specs) show they are heavier and have stiffer sidewalls, If you are a belt and suspender guy like me you would still need to carry a tube is sealant does not work and hope to reseat the tire.
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)



squirtdad is offline  
Old 03-09-20, 06:29 PM
  #29  
surak
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,952

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 726 Times in 436 Posts
Originally Posted by squirtdad
FWIW

I have GP5000 28mm with cont race lite tubes for my commute and other riding (mostly commute ) and have 0 flats at 500 miles but is great when i had like 7 flats on 650 miles on Corsa Gs

I have no experience with tubeless, other than reading the all the issues people have in the mechanics forum which suggests if you go that way got tubeless specific rims and match the tires to the rim. everything I read (and manufacturer specs) show they are heavier and have stiffer sidewalls, If you are a belt and suspender guy like me you would still need to carry a tube is sealant does not work and hope to reseat the tire.
I had the same problem with the Corsas, beautiful tires but lasted 250 miles before my first flat. Took them off after finding out that they were notoriously weak.

I have 3 tubeless ready wheelsets factory-taped and other than initially seating the tire beads, not concerned with the rest of the mechanical work such as fixing a flat on the road, as I carry a bead jack with me anyway. I hear that sealant is messy but cleanable. Plus a lot of early road tubeless nightmare stories seem to be from people using sealant that wasn't designed for road pressure, but the newer stuff like Orange has a good rep, and I plan to run 65 psi or less.

I know from experience that there's a sweet spot of lower pressure that feels immensely more comfortable than even 10 psi higher, but I've had my share of pinch flats so always run my tubed tires at higher psi than I'd like.
surak is offline  
Old 03-10-20, 08:22 AM
  #30  
ups
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 20 Posts
Great thread. Just started commuting the last couple of weeks.

Have been riding Gatorskin Hardshell 32's on a steel framed "gravelish" bike. Being Spring I notice the road chatter from broken road surface. The hard shells are noticeably less compliant than my regular 27" Gatorskins in 32mm (27x1 1/4).

This morning took my Novara Safari touring bike with 2.0" Schwalbe Big Apples. Definitely heavier wheels and tires, but better gearing on steep hills. My time was the same, but I feel much less fatigued arriving on the large tires.

On the ride today I started thinking about Schwalbe Marathon Supremes for the first bike.

Last edited by ups; 03-10-20 at 08:48 AM.
ups is offline  
Old 03-10-20, 11:09 AM
  #31  
ascherer 
Senior Member
 
ascherer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manhattan & Woodstock NY
Posts: 2,744

Bikes: 1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, early '70s Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Raleigh International, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mk1

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked 2,921 Times in 976 Posts
Originally Posted by surak
II hear that sealant is messy but cleanable.

I sure hope so!
__________________
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport





ascherer is offline  
Likes For ascherer:
Old 03-10-20, 11:22 AM
  #32  
Darth Lefty 
Disco Infiltrator
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446

Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,102 Times in 1,366 Posts
Postulated: ^^^ that guy deserved it for all of his affectations
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Darth Lefty is offline  
Old 03-10-20, 11:37 AM
  #33  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,498

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7345 Post(s)
Liked 2,452 Times in 1,430 Posts
Originally Posted by davei1980
Are you rolling latex inner tubes? I had them in the set of tubulars I had for a while.....
No. I feel like I might want to try them, but I notice that people who try them don't keep them because they get lots of punctures. I don't lean towards puncture resistance, but I do have limits.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 03-10-20, 11:41 AM
  #34  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 10,244

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 3,417 Times in 2,526 Posts
If you're ok with the feel and protection of latex, you should try lambskin
RubeRad is offline  
Likes For RubeRad:
Old 03-12-20, 08:08 AM
  #35  
Phil_gretz
Zip tie Karen
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 7,004

Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1465 Post(s)
Liked 1,542 Times in 806 Posts
Originally Posted by ascherer
^hipster. Nice TRP brake levers, though.
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 09:22 AM
  #36  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 10,244

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 3,417 Times in 2,526 Posts
so judging by the spray pattern (let's get all CSI on this photo), he was standing in that position when the tire assploded. Who was pumping it? And is that the pump there behind the bike, that stainless steel thing?

Also is that a Jones fork?
RubeRad is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 09:37 AM
  #37  
ascherer 
Senior Member
 
ascherer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manhattan & Woodstock NY
Posts: 2,744

Bikes: 1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, early '70s Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Raleigh International, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mk1

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked 2,921 Times in 976 Posts
Originally Posted by Phil_gretz
^hipster. Nice TRP brake levers, though.
Poll: Is Jan Heine a hipster?
__________________
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport





ascherer is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 09:40 AM
  #38  
Phil_gretz
Zip tie Karen
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 7,004

Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1465 Post(s)
Liked 1,542 Times in 806 Posts
Originally Posted by ascherer
Poll: Is Jan Heine a hipster?
That's Jan Heine? [slinks away shamefully...] Still nice levers.
Phil_gretz is offline  
Likes For Phil_gretz:
Old 03-12-20, 09:45 AM
  #39  
davei1980
Very Slow Rider
 
davei1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: E Wa
Posts: 1,274

Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked 132 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad

Also is that a Jones fork?
I don't think so but could be wrong, it's a truss design but doesn't look like Jeff Jones's version. The Jones model I is bigger (more pronounced curvature) and they also have "unique" hub spacing of 150 or 135mm depending on the year, so not all that common to see them on bikes with the rim/tire width pictured.

Last edited by davei1980; 03-12-20 at 11:28 AM.
davei1980 is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 10:00 AM
  #40  
ascherer 
Senior Member
 
ascherer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manhattan & Woodstock NY
Posts: 2,744

Bikes: 1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, early '70s Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Raleigh International, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mk1

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked 2,921 Times in 976 Posts
Originally Posted by Phil_gretz
That's Jan Heine? [slinks away shamefully...] Still nice levers.
I don't know it as a fact but it looks mighty like the man. It's the image that comes to mind whenever the conversation veers towards tubeless.
__________________
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport





ascherer is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 03:18 PM
  #41  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
noobinsf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 3,265

Bikes: '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '83 Mercian KOM Touring, '85 Univega Alpina Uno, '76 Eisentraut Limited

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,205 Times in 701 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad
so judging by the spray pattern (let's get all CSI on this photo), he was standing in that position when the tire assploded. Who was pumping it? And is that the pump there behind the bike, that stainless steel thing?

Also is that a Jones fork?
I recall that bike from the 2016 Technical Trials article in BQ -- it's the winner, the PechTregon. I don't know if that's a Jones fork or a similar design, but that's the bike, and that's Heine.
noobinsf is offline  
Old 03-14-20, 06:06 PM
  #42  
tFUnK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,676

Bikes: Too many bikes, too little time to ride

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked 454 Times in 313 Posts
Originally Posted by noglider
No. I feel like I might want to try them, but I notice that people who try them don't keep them because they get lots of punctures. I don't lean towards puncture resistance, but I do have limits.
Fewer punctures with latex, but trickier to mount and if there's a hole in the tire the tube can creep out and puncture. Also, need to pump up before every ride so I don't use latex for commuting.
tFUnK is offline  
Old 03-14-20, 06:49 PM
  #43  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,498

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7345 Post(s)
Liked 2,452 Times in 1,430 Posts
tFUnK harder to mount how?
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 03-14-20, 09:04 PM
  #44  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
I have 28's all around, faster than the narrow 19-23 tires that I used to prefer. But mainly because they're higher quality tires. 32's when I had them were heavy, stiff slow-rolling tires unless you were willing to spend a lot on top quality tires. Maybe not so much now (I couldn't say) but it's a real downside.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 03-15-20, 08:46 AM
  #45  
wolfchild
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times in 1,286 Posts
There are no downsides to bigger tires, only advantages...Larger tires are safer, more comfortable and provide better handling over rough roads....I have 3 different bikes and I use 700x32mm, 700x45mm and 26x2.35 inch tires. I don't even worry about rough pavement, riding over curbs, pot holes and cracks in the pavement, just roll through with no problems.
wolfchild is offline  
Old 03-16-20, 01:42 AM
  #46  
SethAZ 
Senior Member
 
SethAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,394

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey R260, 2005 Diamondback 29er, 2003 Trek 2300

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 564 Post(s)
Liked 334 Times in 182 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad
I have already done that. But what tires should I get?
I've got around 1300 miles or so on a pair of Compass Stampede Pass tires, and they've still got plenty of life left in them. I got the ultralight variant, and they feel amazing compared to the various 28mm tires I used to ride (Continental GP4K and others). I've had two pinch flats due to experimenting with too-low air pressure for my weight combined with riding an exceedingly bad road with lots of large cracks. No other flats due to punctures, and no pinch flats if I ride my usual pressure (90 psi rear, 85psi front) even at full speed over very bad road.

I should note that Compass has changed their name to Rene Herse, so that's how you'd find them nowadays. Same model names for the tire, just Rene Herse Stampede Pass instead of Compass.

I'm thinking of picking up a pair of Bon Jon Pass tires (35mm vs. 32mm) from them and giving them a try. I liked the upgrade from 28mm GP4K tires to these 32mm Stampede Pass tires so much that trying the 35mm is my next logical choice, just to see if these are even better or whether the goodness peaked at 32mm.

What I noticed the most going with these 32mm tires was the ability to ride at full speed over a couple of very poor roads in my vicinity than I could with narrower tires. I used to have to slow down on a couple certain stretches of road, while now I can ride essentially at full speed over them. There's a noticeable dampening of the vibration and jarring. Comparing my Strava times from before the switch to after the switch I don't think I lost any speed at all; if anything I may have gotten slightly faster on these tires. The ultralight model of this tire gives a really plush ride.
SethAZ is offline  
Old 03-16-20, 01:45 AM
  #47  
SethAZ 
Senior Member
 
SethAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,394

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey R260, 2005 Diamondback 29er, 2003 Trek 2300

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 564 Post(s)
Liked 334 Times in 182 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton
I have 28's all around, faster than the narrow 19-23 tires that I used to prefer. But mainly because they're higher quality tires. 32's when I had them were heavy, stiff slow-rolling tires unless you were willing to spend a lot on top quality tires. Maybe not so much now (I couldn't say) but it's a real downside.
The Compass/Rene Herse tires (they changed their name recently) that I've been riding for the last 1300ish miles are the exact opposite of the heavy, stiff-rolling tires you experienced. The Compass Stampede Pass ultralight was a decided step up on my bike from Conti GP4K 28mm or 25mm tires. Not cheap, but they've worn well so far.
SethAZ is offline  
Old 03-16-20, 06:59 AM
  #48  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by SethAZ
The Compass/Rene Herse tires (they changed their name recently) that I've been riding for the last 1300ish miles are the exact opposite of the heavy, stiff-rolling tires you experienced. The Compass Stampede Pass ultralight was a decided step up on my bike from Conti GP4K 28mm or 25mm tires. Not cheap, but they've worn well so far.
Nice. I used to have the Performance brand and Nashbar 32's which were durable and puncture resistant (and inexpensive), but slow after I became aware of better tires. Most of the 32's were like that. My takeaway there is look specifically for the easy-rolling 32 if that's what you want, because there's no generalizing it.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 03-16-20, 03:05 PM
  #49  
surak
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,952

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 726 Times in 436 Posts
Love reading everyone's experiences with wider tires. I've got a pair of 32mm GP5k TLs coming Wednesday. We'll see if I can get them seated and sealed with the gear I have, and how they ride if Seattle or Washington don't go into lockdown and ban non-essential travel by then. 😷
surak is offline  
Old 03-16-20, 03:54 PM
  #50  
davei1980
Very Slow Rider
 
davei1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: E Wa
Posts: 1,274

Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked 132 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by surak
Love reading everyone's experiences with wider tires. I've got a pair of 32mm GP5k TLs coming Wednesday. We'll see if I can get them seated and sealed with the gear I have, and how they ride if Seattle or Washington don't go into lockdown and ban non-essential travel by then. 😷
Stay safe over there in W WA, from those of us here in E WA
davei1980 is offline  
Likes For davei1980:


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.