Are Big Box Stores Promoting a Throwaway Bike Culture?
#26
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,362
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6219 Post(s)
Liked 4,218 Times
in
2,365 Posts
Untitled by Stuart Black, on FlickrUntitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr
isn't even the worst I've seen in terms of twisting apart. I've seen one where the center twisted into something that looks like a fence finial.
By the way, for a bike to sell for $100 in 2020, it would have sold for $40 in 1980.
You have obviously never tried to repair a Walmart bike.
Most of the parts are proprietary and ultra-flimsy---hard plastic or stamped pot-metal levers, stamped chain rings, cheap and flimsy stamped brakes .... you cannot buy replacement parts so you have to go to a real bike retailer and pay----almost always half or more of the total worth of the bike---to get real parts.
Now you have a $120 bike with $60 brakes and the rest is still crap. When the next bit fails .... spend another $60?
As far as recycling goes, when is the last time you actually took a bike to a recycler? How much of it gets reused?
The plastic might ... but probably none of it is recyclable. The metal might ... but how much does the recycler pay to have workers disassemble the bike for $1.22 worth of aluminum?
And where I live, a lot of "recyclable" material is Not accepted for recycling any more because there is no profit---the market is flooded with cheap crap. A lot of it cannot be reused due to contamination, and a lot of the plastic is already partially recycled and all it is good for is blown-in insulation for houses ... and there are only so many houses.
I know it is probably regional, but I question how much of any "recycling: is actually done---as opposed to companies shipping everything to landfills in India so they can meet their federal requirements for waste-stream recycling by percentage.
I thought they were easy to repair? Hmmmmm .....
Also ... High-end bikes Don't get thrown away. Most of them are used by their owners and then relegated to back-up or rain bike when they get replaced by a new model. A lot are sold. And even the expensive bikes which don't get ridden get sold---garage queens? ever heard the term?---and then ridden by someone else who really appreciates a good bike.
High-end bikes Can be repaired, and generally get good maintenance, because not a lot of people spend a lot of money on expensive stuff and trash it. And even if they don't get maintained, they still get sold ... and people replace the worn bits and ride them for years longer. It is worth doing if the basic bike is of good quality.
Walmart bikes ... break them, toss them, because almost any repair will cost more than a new bike.
Most of the parts are proprietary and ultra-flimsy---hard plastic or stamped pot-metal levers, stamped chain rings, cheap and flimsy stamped brakes .... you cannot buy replacement parts so you have to go to a real bike retailer and pay----almost always half or more of the total worth of the bike---to get real parts.
Now you have a $120 bike with $60 brakes and the rest is still crap. When the next bit fails .... spend another $60?
As far as recycling goes, when is the last time you actually took a bike to a recycler? How much of it gets reused?
The plastic might ... but probably none of it is recyclable. The metal might ... but how much does the recycler pay to have workers disassemble the bike for $1.22 worth of aluminum?
And where I live, a lot of "recyclable" material is Not accepted for recycling any more because there is no profit---the market is flooded with cheap crap. A lot of it cannot be reused due to contamination, and a lot of the plastic is already partially recycled and all it is good for is blown-in insulation for houses ... and there are only so many houses.
I know it is probably regional, but I question how much of any "recycling: is actually done---as opposed to companies shipping everything to landfills in India so they can meet their federal requirements for waste-stream recycling by percentage.
I thought they were easy to repair? Hmmmmm .....
Also ... High-end bikes Don't get thrown away. Most of them are used by their owners and then relegated to back-up or rain bike when they get replaced by a new model. A lot are sold. And even the expensive bikes which don't get ridden get sold---garage queens? ever heard the term?---and then ridden by someone else who really appreciates a good bike.
High-end bikes Can be repaired, and generally get good maintenance, because not a lot of people spend a lot of money on expensive stuff and trash it. And even if they don't get maintained, they still get sold ... and people replace the worn bits and ride them for years longer. It is worth doing if the basic bike is of good quality.
Walmart bikes ... break them, toss them, because almost any repair will cost more than a new bike.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#27
SE Wis
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 10,511
Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2746 Post(s)
Liked 3,391 Times
in
2,054 Posts
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
The basic nature of big box store products. It is pretty easy to change color, slap any of wide array of decals
on one of these and call it a bicycle. Low end components. poorly manufactured and speed assembly put on
branded name plate = BSO's(Bicycle shaped objects).
No precision, really not repairable and as stated above, virtually no value in resale.
A true indicator of the throw away mentality.
As an industry, bicycles are a bit of an inconstancy.
The humble bicycle is a lifeline of mobility for many around the world.
They are very simple, functional and actually, very fun to ride.
They are virtually free to operate, save for cost to maintain and replace wear parts.
There are very few protections from the consumer receiving poorly manufactured, poorly assembled and
non precision units.( Note the posts and photos of big box units with the fork on backwards).
Assembly on the big box level is "pieces per hour".
Assembly at the LBS level is more of "hours per piece".
I would venture a guess there are more regulations for a pair of electronic ear buds than for a bicycle.
Compare a fork failing to the worst that could happen to many consumer product failures.
It is interesting to note that the cost of a LBS bicycle tune up or a professional assembly can rival or exceed
the initial cost or that of replacing a big box model with a new one.
The "return it because it broke" mentality fostered by amazon has people believing that this is their right.
Ebay's orientation is that the vendor/seller is always wrong and needs eat the costs for user error or abuse.
The "customer is always right" mentality of yesteryear has evolved into "Solve my stupidity or do what t I want or I'll sue or more
and its current iteration - "I'll blast you on social media" because you are not willing to roll over".
"I put the product through things it was never engineered to do, now it doesn't work or I bought the wrong thing
and I demand my money back" has become the consumer mantra.
Free service, free parts and immediate satisfaction. Free shipping to be included!
rusty
on one of these and call it a bicycle. Low end components. poorly manufactured and speed assembly put on
branded name plate = BSO's(Bicycle shaped objects).
No precision, really not repairable and as stated above, virtually no value in resale.
A true indicator of the throw away mentality.
As an industry, bicycles are a bit of an inconstancy.
The humble bicycle is a lifeline of mobility for many around the world.
They are very simple, functional and actually, very fun to ride.
They are virtually free to operate, save for cost to maintain and replace wear parts.
There are very few protections from the consumer receiving poorly manufactured, poorly assembled and
non precision units.( Note the posts and photos of big box units with the fork on backwards).
Assembly on the big box level is "pieces per hour".
Assembly at the LBS level is more of "hours per piece".
I would venture a guess there are more regulations for a pair of electronic ear buds than for a bicycle.
Compare a fork failing to the worst that could happen to many consumer product failures.
It is interesting to note that the cost of a LBS bicycle tune up or a professional assembly can rival or exceed
the initial cost or that of replacing a big box model with a new one.
The "return it because it broke" mentality fostered by amazon has people believing that this is their right.
Ebay's orientation is that the vendor/seller is always wrong and needs eat the costs for user error or abuse.
The "customer is always right" mentality of yesteryear has evolved into "Solve my stupidity or do what t I want or I'll sue or more
and its current iteration - "I'll blast you on social media" because you are not willing to roll over".
"I put the product through things it was never engineered to do, now it doesn't work or I bought the wrong thing
and I demand my money back" has become the consumer mantra.
Free service, free parts and immediate satisfaction. Free shipping to be included!
rusty
WHen I volinteered at a bicycle co-op most of the bikes brought in for repairs were department store bikes and the most usual repair requested was to get the shifting to work. Index shifting but with spiral wound housing = many problems especially if the front shifter was for a indexed triple.
Cheers
#29
SE Wis
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 10,511
Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2746 Post(s)
Liked 3,391 Times
in
2,054 Posts
As far as recycling goes, when is the last time you actually took a bike to a recycler? How much of it gets reused?
The plastic might ... but probably none of it is recyclable. The metal might ... but how much does the recycler pay to have workers disassemble the bike for $1.22 worth of aluminum?.
The plastic might ... but probably none of it is recyclable. The metal might ... but how much does the recycler pay to have workers disassemble the bike for $1.22 worth of aluminum?.
No one pays workers to disassemble a bike in the scrap business. Small time street pickers will do some of this to maximize their profit as "clean" and sorted pays higher prices. I've seen guys at the scrap yard who have cut spokes to get an AL rim, removed axles from AL hubs, pulled seats and grips etc, just to have "clean" scrap that pays higher than "breakage" which is AL with other things attached.
In the real world of scrap, stuff gets crushed into small pieces and gets sorted magnetically for steel and by eddy current for other metals. This happens when it moves through the recycling supply chain to bigger volume proccessors.Do you think when a car gets recycled someone pulls out things like seats, hoses, etc.? It all goes through the shredder and the remainder (20% +/-) becomes "Auto Shredder Residue (ASR) and gets landfilled.
#30
Senior Member
Snip
/snip
You DO realize that most of the bikes before 1970 were hi-ten (not CrMo), right? I STILL ride my '75 Fuji S-10S that has a high-ten frame... I bought it new back then, and at 26 pounds was considered quite light in the day when a full Campy-equipped Schwinn Paramount on tubulars was doing good to weigh under 22 pounds!!! Your basic Electro-forged Schwinn Varsity was close to 40 pounds!!! https://bikehistory.org/catalogs/1975.html
You DO realize that most of the bikes before 1970 were hi-ten (not CrMo), right? I STILL ride my '75 Fuji S-10S that has a high-ten frame... I bought it new back then, and at 26 pounds was considered quite light in the day when a full Campy-equipped Schwinn Paramount on tubulars was doing good to weigh under 22 pounds!!! Your basic Electro-forged Schwinn Varsity was close to 40 pounds!!! https://bikehistory.org/catalogs/1975.html
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,489
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7652 Post(s)
Liked 3,473 Times
in
1,834 Posts
Had the Schwinn Suburban .... 46 pounds. never has the slightest rust problem, and it would probably be an artifact in a museum 1,000 years from now if it hadn't gotten hit by a car.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,489
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7652 Post(s)
Liked 3,473 Times
in
1,834 Posts
You don't have to take a bike to a recycler. Leave it on the street and someone will grab it to recycle it.
No one pays workers to disassemble a bike in the scrap business. Small time street pickers will do some of this to maximize their profit as "clean" and sorted pays higher prices. I've seen guys at the scrap yard who have cut spokes to get an AL rim, removed axles from AL hubs, pulled seats and grips etc, just to have "clean" scrap that pays higher than "breakage" which is AL with other things attached.
No one pays workers to disassemble a bike in the scrap business. Small time street pickers will do some of this to maximize their profit as "clean" and sorted pays higher prices. I've seen guys at the scrap yard who have cut spokes to get an AL rim, removed axles from AL hubs, pulled seats and grips etc, just to have "clean" scrap that pays higher than "breakage" which is AL with other things attached.
Where I live it is a couple hours drive to a recycling plant. Pretty sure no homeless guy is carrying a set of bike rims 100 miles on foot for what, $2.50 a pound? Also, thankfully .... hardly any homeless around here. No day-labor jobs, no Salvation Army free-meal-for-a-sermon set-ups, no free day-old bread give-aways. Maybe in any of the cities in the area .... which are all too far for people to walk to.
Where I live, bikes left at the end of driveways are trash. Maybe Milwaukee is different.
In the real world of scrap, stuff gets crushed into small pieces and gets sorted magnetically for steel and by eddy current for other metals. This happens when it moves through the recycling supply chain to bigger volume proccessors. Do you think when a car gets recycled someone pulls out things like seats, hoses, etc.? It all goes through the shredder and the remainder (20% +/-) becomes "Auto Shredder Residue (ASR) and gets landfilled.
As I said, where I live most stuff--even milk jugs and stuff---are not accepted for recycling because there simply isn't enough profit in collecting enough to truck them somewhere for processing and there isn't that great a demand for high-density polyethylene compared to the available quantities in stock.
Recycling is a business and when it is not a profitable business, people simply don't do it.
But hey .... I am not telling anyone how to live. if you want to buy a steady stream of Walmart bikes so you can feed the local recycling industry, be my guest.
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410
Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 850 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times
in
247 Posts
We can’t expect to buy things for life. Nobody is in that business anymore. It’s either we keep buying a steady stream of stuff (this includes high end bikes) or we pay a steady stream of money for a single item.
Likes For smashndash:
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 727
Bikes: Current: 2016 Bianchi Volpe; 1973 Peugeot UO-8. Past: 1974 Fuji S-10-S with custom black Imron paint by Stinsman Racing of PA.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times
in
142 Posts
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,599
Bikes: 06 Lemond Reno, 98 GT Timberline mtn.bike
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 427 Post(s)
Liked 699 Times
in
436 Posts
I think you'll find most people won't buy a big box store bike if they are serious about riding-most know that they will not be quality and will not last. But for kids who are going to ride them for a season or so before outgrowing them, who abuse the heck out of them, they serve their purpose. And maybe for the parent who might ride very seldom with their child. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit for knowing big box bikes aren't top quality, I hope not.
Likes For freeranger:
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
I think you'll find most people won't buy a big box store bike if they are serious about riding-most know that they will not be quality and will not last. But for kids who are going to ride them for a season or so before outgrowing them, who abuse the heck out of them, they serve their purpose. And maybe for the parent who might ride very seldom with their child. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit for knowing big box bikes aren't top quality, I hope not.
Cheers
#37
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times
in
635 Posts
On what basis do you say "not particuarlly strong". If they are up graded with serviceable components, they may be a little heavy, but very serviceable over all. In many cases buying a "name" is a huge waste of money. Remember unlike the quality lugged frame bikes before 1990, almost all are computer welded frames from China. Only the name painted on the frame is different.
Last edited by rydabent; 03-26-20 at 11:16 AM.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 5,126
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2236 Post(s)
Liked 1,314 Times
in
707 Posts
I think one should buy a bike because they like it, not because of some future resale value or because of it's perceived value by others. Frankly, that's a fools game as:
1. Almost all bikes will depreciate considerably over time
2. The purpose of a bike is to be ridden and enjoyed.
I have a couple of middle of the road nice bikes and some (what would be considered) clunkers. For various reasons, I enjoy them all. If you have an eye you can pick up some very decent thrift store bikes and replacement parts are fairly cheap for the < 8speed genre. Obviously a modern low end department store bike comes with some quality issues but that doesn't equate to all HiTen or inexpensive avenues.
One of the nicer bikes I have is a 92 Trek Mutitrack. HiTen but surprisingly light and responsive, well made, triple crank, canti lever, gravel tire capable, fender and rack mounts... An excellent all roads bike. The one negative (because I worry about frame strength) is that it is a step thru design. The only bike I currently scan CL for is a similar model in a diamond frame. When I see it I'll buy it and turn it into a gravel bike and invest in putting braised cage mounts where I want them.
Here's a guy who only works in HiTen. His bikes have a somewhat cult following:
1. Almost all bikes will depreciate considerably over time
2. The purpose of a bike is to be ridden and enjoyed.
I have a couple of middle of the road nice bikes and some (what would be considered) clunkers. For various reasons, I enjoy them all. If you have an eye you can pick up some very decent thrift store bikes and replacement parts are fairly cheap for the < 8speed genre. Obviously a modern low end department store bike comes with some quality issues but that doesn't equate to all HiTen or inexpensive avenues.
One of the nicer bikes I have is a 92 Trek Mutitrack. HiTen but surprisingly light and responsive, well made, triple crank, canti lever, gravel tire capable, fender and rack mounts... An excellent all roads bike. The one negative (because I worry about frame strength) is that it is a step thru design. The only bike I currently scan CL for is a similar model in a diamond frame. When I see it I'll buy it and turn it into a gravel bike and invest in putting braised cage mounts where I want them.
Here's a guy who only works in HiTen. His bikes have a somewhat cult following:
Last edited by Happy Feet; 03-26-20 at 08:41 AM.
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SW Fl.
Posts: 5,618
Bikes: Day6 Semi Recumbent "FIREBALL", 1981 Custom Touring Paramount, 1983 Road Paramount, 2013 Giant Propel Advanced SL3, 2018 Specialized Red Roubaix Expert mech., 2002 Magna 7sp hybrid, 1976 Bassett Racing 45sp Cruiser
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1068 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times
in
504 Posts
I think you'll find most people won't buy a big box store bike if they are serious about riding-most know that they will not be quality and will not last. But for kids who are going to ride them for a season or so before outgrowing them, who abuse the heck out of them, they serve their purpose. And maybe for the parent who might ride very seldom with their child. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit for knowing big box bikes aren't top quality, I hope not.
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
I think you'll find most people won't buy a big box store bike if they are serious about riding-most know that they will not be quality and will not last. But for kids who are going to ride them for a season or so before outgrowing them, who abuse the heck out of them, they serve their purpose. And maybe for the parent who might ride very seldom with their child. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit for knowing big box bikes aren't top quality, I hope not.
I think a lot of folks don't appreciate just how bad department store bikes are.
So, my view is, even for kids, it is worth spending a few bucks more and going to a bike shop, or to buy a decent bike, if only for the assembly quality and service. If, that is, you actually want your kids to enjoy riding. When my son was little, we bought him a single speed purchased from a local bike shop, then when he outgrew that, a 6 speed Raleigh, also, from a local bike shop. Finally, after he outgrew that bike, I went to a local bike shop and gave them this challenge. Since at this point, when my son was about 10, he was ready for an adult bike,So I gave the owner of the shop a challenge. Build my son a bike in a small adult size for half the retail price of a comparable adult bike, since I already knew that at his growth rate, he would only fit the bike for 2, maybe 3 years. Anyway, the owner met the challenge, and built a bike around a used Trek 820 frame and fork for under $200. And my son rode the hell out of that bike, riding with me on rides of as long as 30 miles. When we sold the bike, it was still in tip top shape. If there were someone in my family who could have ridden the bike, I would have kept it.
BTW, my son always loved cycling and still does. After the Trek, he rode one of my bikes for a couple of years until he outgrew that bike. Then he got a used Mountain bike when he got into single track, then eventually upgrading to a better one. And when he needed a road bike, I bought him a used early 80s Gitane that someone had upgraded with modern components at some point.
Last edited by MRT2; 03-26-20 at 02:55 PM.
Likes For MRT2:
#41
Senior Member
Have to admit years ago when I was looking to buy a bicycle I didn't know if I be interested so wanted something cheap so I didn't wast much money. Anyway, I went to the local big box stores, quickly learned about bike sizing and quickly learned that big box stores don't make bikes big enough for me so turned to LBS brands.
#42
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,362
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6219 Post(s)
Liked 4,218 Times
in
2,365 Posts
I really doubt that you would get the same mileage on a 2020 Target Magna without major problems. As bad as the 2002 version was, the 2020 version is far worse. That spindle I posted above isn’t from a 2002 HelMart bike. The problems I...and others...have been seeing are with old HelMart bikes. They are often nearly new with only a few hundred miles on them.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#43
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,362
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6219 Post(s)
Liked 4,218 Times
in
2,365 Posts
It would be helpful if you would quote the people you are responding to so that we don’t have to guess.
What I mean by being “not particularly strong” is that the frames are poorly welded and poorly fitted. Welds are barely adequate to hold the frame together. Threads on the bottom bracket are inconsistent. They are often too tight because the dies used to cut the threads are worn out and don’t cut the threads deeply enough. If the bottom bracket comes out of the shell, putting a new one back in will often need the threads to be recut so that the new bottom bracket can be threaded in. The frames are often misaligned. The forks are often misaligned. The derailers used are flimsy and won’t keep the bike in gear and are also very easily bent out of alignment...like bumping in a bike rack flimsy.
Yes, many bikes are welded in China. Most of the bike store bikes are welded in the better factories to specific specifications. The point of a bike store bike...even a cheap one...is to provide a quality product that will last, provide enjoyment, and, perhaps, get the customer to come back and buy something better.
The point of a HelMart bike is to provide an object that looks like a bicycle and will roll long enough to get it home where it will be ridden for a few miles at best and then hung on a peg where it will hang until someone decides to throw it away. HelMart’s model is not about getting people to ride bike but to come in to buy a bike and maybe pick up a bunch of other cheap stuff at the same time. The only thing that makes HelMart bikes safe is that they are so poorly built that they will stop working before they can collapse and cause the rider injury.
On what basis do you say "not particuarlly strong". If they are up graded with serviceable components, they may be a little heavy, but very serviceable over all. In many cases buying a "name" is a huge waste of money. Remember unlike the quality lugged frame bikes before 1990, almost all are computer welded frames from China. Only the name painted on the frame is different.
Yes, many bikes are welded in China. Most of the bike store bikes are welded in the better factories to specific specifications. The point of a bike store bike...even a cheap one...is to provide a quality product that will last, provide enjoyment, and, perhaps, get the customer to come back and buy something better.
The point of a HelMart bike is to provide an object that looks like a bicycle and will roll long enough to get it home where it will be ridden for a few miles at best and then hung on a peg where it will hang until someone decides to throw it away. HelMart’s model is not about getting people to ride bike but to come in to buy a bike and maybe pick up a bunch of other cheap stuff at the same time. The only thing that makes HelMart bikes safe is that they are so poorly built that they will stop working before they can collapse and cause the rider injury.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,489
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7652 Post(s)
Liked 3,473 Times
in
1,834 Posts
Both pro and con statements are a bit exaggerated but i think we All know what's up.
The fact that so many bike frames are made in China is irrelevant. That is like saying any person in the U.S. can do a job as well anyone else in the U.S. I am not a plumber or an electrician, not a cabinet-maker nor a car mechanic. So ... just because I live in the same country as people who do those things .... we are all equal? And every mechanic or electrician or plumber is as good as any other, because they are all in the same country. Prima facie absurd.
We have all seen great bikes and cheap knock-offs manufactured in China. In fact Almost All bike frames nowadays are manufactured in China ... so a new Cervelo R-series is exactly the same as a 2019 Magna "mountain" bike?
We have had this discussion countless times. Walmart (and other big box) bikes are Cheap. They are often poorly assembled, and never manufactured to very close tolerances (I have ridden enough--to destruction---to know this.) Yet, they serve numerous purposes very well.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
For a huge segment of the population (I think something like 75% of all bikes sold are from big-box stores, but anyone who cares more can refute or support that) a big-box bike gets the job done. And for many people, the cost of replacing the bike every season or two is still a better deal than paying a lot more money for a better bike.
And why should we even care?
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
The fact that so many bike frames are made in China is irrelevant. That is like saying any person in the U.S. can do a job as well anyone else in the U.S. I am not a plumber or an electrician, not a cabinet-maker nor a car mechanic. So ... just because I live in the same country as people who do those things .... we are all equal? And every mechanic or electrician or plumber is as good as any other, because they are all in the same country. Prima facie absurd.
We have all seen great bikes and cheap knock-offs manufactured in China. In fact Almost All bike frames nowadays are manufactured in China ... so a new Cervelo R-series is exactly the same as a 2019 Magna "mountain" bike?
We have had this discussion countless times. Walmart (and other big box) bikes are Cheap. They are often poorly assembled, and never manufactured to very close tolerances (I have ridden enough--to destruction---to know this.) Yet, they serve numerous purposes very well.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
For a huge segment of the population (I think something like 75% of all bikes sold are from big-box stores, but anyone who cares more can refute or support that) a big-box bike gets the job done. And for many people, the cost of replacing the bike every season or two is still a better deal than paying a lot more money for a better bike.
And why should we even care?
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
Last edited by Maelochs; 03-26-20 at 06:54 PM.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SW Fl.
Posts: 5,618
Bikes: Day6 Semi Recumbent "FIREBALL", 1981 Custom Touring Paramount, 1983 Road Paramount, 2013 Giant Propel Advanced SL3, 2018 Specialized Red Roubaix Expert mech., 2002 Magna 7sp hybrid, 1976 Bassett Racing 45sp Cruiser
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1068 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times
in
504 Posts
Both pro and con statements are a bit exaggerated but i think we All know what's up.................
.................Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
.................Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
Likes For OldTryGuy:
#46
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,362
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6219 Post(s)
Liked 4,218 Times
in
2,365 Posts
We have had this discussion countless times. Walmart (and other big box) bikes are Cheap. They are often poorly assembled, and never manufactured to very close tolerances (I have ridden enough--to destruction---to know this.) Yet, they serve numerous purposes very well.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
For a huge segment of the population (I think something like 75% of all bikes sold are from big-box stores, but anyone who cares more can refute or support that) a big-box bike gets the job done. And for many people, the cost of replacing the bike every season or two is still a better deal than paying a lot more money for a better bike.
And why should we even care?
And why should we even care?
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
I keep them running as well as possible but they also tend to be the bikes with the most problems and need the most care. I don’t tell people that their bikes are crap even though I know that their bikes are crap and are going to be coming back to us often. I won’t, however, tell someone to go out and buy a HelMart bike of any kind for any reason. They are just wasting their money.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#47
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Same old thread, different title.
Seriously, there is nothing new to say on this topic that hasn't been covered in literally dozens of threads.
There's a certain banned cat that must be shaking his fists like crazy right now, however. Heh heh.
Seriously, there is nothing new to say on this topic that hasn't been covered in literally dozens of threads.
There's a certain banned cat that must be shaking his fists like crazy right now, however. Heh heh.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
Both pro and con statements are a bit exaggerated but i think we All know what's up.
The fact that so many bike frames are made in China is irrelevant. That is like saying any person in the U.S. can do a job as well anyone else in the U.S. I am not a plumber or an electrician, not a cabinet-maker nor a car mechanic. So ... just because I live in the same country as people who do those things .... we are all equal? And every mechanic or electrician or plumber is as good as any other, because they are all in the same country. Prima facie absurd.
We have all seen great bikes and cheap knock-offs manufactured in China. In fact Almost All bike frames nowadays are manufactured in China ... so a new Cervelo R-series is exactly the same as a 2019 Magna "mountain" bike?
We have had this discussion countless times. Walmart (and other big box) bikes are Cheap. They are often poorly assembled, and never manufactured to very close tolerances (I have ridden enough--to destruction---to know this.) Yet, they serve numerous purposes very well.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
For a huge segment of the population (I think something like 75% of all bikes sold are from big-box stores, but anyone who cares more can refute or support that) a big-box bike gets the job done. And for many people, the cost of replacing the bike every season or two is still a better deal than paying a lot more money for a better bike.
And why should we even care?
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
The fact that so many bike frames are made in China is irrelevant. That is like saying any person in the U.S. can do a job as well anyone else in the U.S. I am not a plumber or an electrician, not a cabinet-maker nor a car mechanic. So ... just because I live in the same country as people who do those things .... we are all equal? And every mechanic or electrician or plumber is as good as any other, because they are all in the same country. Prima facie absurd.
We have all seen great bikes and cheap knock-offs manufactured in China. In fact Almost All bike frames nowadays are manufactured in China ... so a new Cervelo R-series is exactly the same as a 2019 Magna "mountain" bike?
We have had this discussion countless times. Walmart (and other big box) bikes are Cheap. They are often poorly assembled, and never manufactured to very close tolerances (I have ridden enough--to destruction---to know this.) Yet, they serve numerous purposes very well.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
For a huge segment of the population (I think something like 75% of all bikes sold are from big-box stores, but anyone who cares more can refute or support that) a big-box bike gets the job done. And for many people, the cost of replacing the bike every season or two is still a better deal than paying a lot more money for a better bike.
And why should we even care?
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
Likes For MRT2:
#49
Senior Member
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
Both pro and con statements are a bit exaggerated but i think we All know what's up.
The fact that so many bike frames are made in China is irrelevant. That is like saying any person in the U.S. can do a job as well anyone else in the U.S. I am not a plumber or an electrician, not a cabinet-maker nor a car mechanic. So ... just because I live in the same country as people who do those things .... we are all equal? And every mechanic or electrician or plumber is as good as any other, because they are all in the same country. Prima facie absurd.
We have all seen great bikes and cheap knock-offs manufactured in China. In fact Almost All bike frames nowadays are manufactured in China ... so a new Cervelo R-series is exactly the same as a 2019 Magna "mountain" bike?
We have had this discussion countless times. Walmart (and other big box) bikes are Cheap. They are often poorly assembled, and never manufactured to very close tolerances (I have ridden enough--to destruction---to know this.) Yet, they serve numerous purposes very well.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
For a huge segment of the population (I think something like 75% of all bikes sold are from big-box stores, but anyone who cares more can refute or support that) a big-box bike gets the job done. And for many people, the cost of replacing the bike every season or two is still a better deal than paying a lot more money for a better bike.
And why should we even care?
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
The fact that so many bike frames are made in China is irrelevant. That is like saying any person in the U.S. can do a job as well anyone else in the U.S. I am not a plumber or an electrician, not a cabinet-maker nor a car mechanic. So ... just because I live in the same country as people who do those things .... we are all equal? And every mechanic or electrician or plumber is as good as any other, because they are all in the same country. Prima facie absurd.
We have all seen great bikes and cheap knock-offs manufactured in China. In fact Almost All bike frames nowadays are manufactured in China ... so a new Cervelo R-series is exactly the same as a 2019 Magna "mountain" bike?
We have had this discussion countless times. Walmart (and other big box) bikes are Cheap. They are often poorly assembled, and never manufactured to very close tolerances (I have ridden enough--to destruction---to know this.) Yet, they serve numerous purposes very well.
Many are bought by people who never intend to ride far or hard, and who enjoy the bikes very much because they never test them to capacity. Many are bought by people who need transportation and cannot or need not spend several times more to just get around. Many are bought to please kids who think the bikes look cool, and who would beat the snot out of any bike .... and will outgrow it in a season anyway.
For a huge segment of the population (I think something like 75% of all bikes sold are from big-box stores, but anyone who cares more can refute or support that) a big-box bike gets the job done. And for many people, the cost of replacing the bike every season or two is still a better deal than paying a lot more money for a better bike.
And why should we even care?
People who play sports aren't going around scoffing at sneakers, saying how they would never stand up to the stress of pro sports, or competitive cross-country running, or whatever .... because sneakers are not serious athletic shoes. They are fashion items, or more so (as with K-mart models (which I wear) ) simply cheap and effective footwear.
Big-box bikes cannot be compared fairly with even cheap enthusiast bikes because they were designed and built to do different jobs.
Making false equivalencies and then pointing out how those falsely equivalent objects aren't equal .... seems a bit silly to me.
When my son was little, I thought this through and avoided big box store bikes. When he was in middle school, I signed him up for a local mountain biking club, and eventually team. (started as a club, became a team) I knew enough about bikes to talk to folks from the league and the team and ask. What is the minimum level of quality he needs to safely ride single track? The answer was, he needs a real mountain bike.
Not surprisingly, a lot of kids showed up the first week on either really old mountain bikes or big box mountain style bikes. The ones riding old mountain bikes were fine. The kids riding big box store bikes either quit within a couple of weeks, or went and bought real mountain bikes. And, I saw more than one kid walking out of the woods dragging his broken big box mountain bike behind him.
So no, I don't think folks realize how bad big box store bikes really are.
As far as the cost factor goes, I understand that but think it isn't an issue for most families. A decent kids bike can be passed down to a younger brother or sister. And you can always look for a decent used bike, if the cost of a new bike is cost prohibitive.
Last edited by MRT2; 03-27-20 at 11:09 AM.
Likes For MRT2: