TenGrainBread 

I have a chance to go look at this bike tomorrow. It looks like a mid-70s short-coupled ("Sprint-style") Paramount tandem. Seller is going to ask $500 and might be willing to negotiate.

I've been planning on getting a tandem for my other half and I. My only hesitations are:

• No decals (repaint? Or just missing decals?)
• 27" wheels + cantis (little chance of a 700C conversion)
• What were probably originally MAFAC cantis look to have been replaced by some other brakes

What do y'all think? Get? Don't get?

due ruote 

If the wheel issue is a big one, you could take a pair of 700c wheels with you and try them.

Too bad bad about the paint but maybe a nice find anyway. OTOH, nice finds on quality tandems don’t seem to be all that rare.

Ride and see. Have you ridden many tandems for comparison?

merziac

Maybe they'll throw in the trike. The drive train alone is worth the price of admission. If this fits it's a good deal with no shipping. I vote the real deal, do it!

KenNC

I would get it in a heartbeat. On a tandem, my stoker (bride of 40 years) is very sensitive to any bumps I hit. Apparently they are a much bigger deal when you can't see them, than when you can. So, the 27 inch wheels, slightly softer I suppose, might be a blessing in disguise.

conspiratemus1

Be sure to bring your proposed stoker, too. That is a really short rear cockpit. Sure, you can put on a longer stoker stem but then her knees will hit the handlebars when she stands up. If she feels cramped on it, nothing I say from here on in makes a hill of beans of difference: She won't ride it, so don't buy it. Tandems like that were often ridden with the stoker's head turned sideways so his/her cheek was pressed against the captain's back. Aerodynamic, yes.....

But Wow, the Campagnolo cross-over drive triple tandem crankset is beautiful.

There, now that I'm past that, check for:

Eccentric:
Loosen the pinch bolts under the front bottom bracket shell and make sure the eccentric, which maintains the tension in the front chain, is freely moveable in the shell using whatever tool it needs, often a green Park pin wrench. These can seize in place and become useless. Think stuck stems and seatposts but with greater surface area to corrode together. Eccentrics in a wide variety of styles are available from the tandem shops as replacements. But if it moves at all, it's probably OK. Just make a note to yourself to take it out as soon as you get it home, and re-install it with anti-seize after a good cleaning.

Bottom brackets, especially the rear:
Cross-over drives are hard on the rear bottom bracket bearings and so various same-side drives were common before cartridge-bearing BBs became available. So once the eccentric has been shown to be moveable, slip off both chains and spin the two cranksets independently to see how they feel. If the bearings on this one are bad, it would be easy to replace with cartridge, so not a deal-breaker. You just need to be sure the new spindle is long enough on both sides to handle cranks with chainrings. Ideally, with any tandem bottom bracket, you like to have some side to side adjustment to make the front chain line up (like on a single-speed) but this is not really crucial as long as it's close. Use a derailer chain, not a single-speed chain, because as you pedal, the keel tube bows in and out and the chain has to be able to follow the chainrings as they yaw without falling off....a very bad thing on a tandem if one or both of you is standing at the time.

Rear Wheel (lots of things):
Yes, 700C wheels would be easier to replace rims and tires for, and tandems are indeed hard on both. The rear tire seems to disappear in front of your eyes. Those look to be 48 spokes so unlikely to break many.
But....the rims wear with braking and can you find 48-spoke 27" rims? Well, yes you can: Tandems East Wheelsets, Rims and Hubs shows Dyads in 40 and 48 holes "back in stock".
Can you fit (clearance) or find (in 27") larger tires? There will be no "hit" perception difference with 27 vs 700C but a 32 mm tire (or bigger) will keep you stoker happier. And you absolutely must call out every bump in time for her to get off her saddle. But that is another story, about successful tandem riding (as opposed to just buying.) But do remember that while you, in control of steering, braking, and shifting, are the captain, she is the rear-admiral and we know who out-ranks whom, right? The captain cons the ship at sea but the admiral decides if and when the ship leaves port.

The rear end we don't see in the photo. Likely a freewheel hub for that vintage of frame (doubled internal bracing tubes, often erroneously called "laterals".) I don't think that is a deal-breaker on an old tandem although a lot of people would walk away. You should assume that the dropout spacing is too narrow to to fit any current tandem hubs, which would be 140 or 145 mm OLD, so forget about upgrading to a cassette-type "official" tandem wheel. If the spacing is 135 you could use a mountain-bike hub but the kicker is that you wouldn't want to go less than 40 spokes unless you are both really light. 40-spoke cassette hubs in the shorter OLDs are not a common item but White Industries will do you up an MI5 in 135 mm. So unless you want to spend some money you are going to want to try to make do with the freewheel. Not necessarily a bad thing -- we used one on our old Santana for a few years with no probs. -- except that getting them off is very difficult because of the torque of the two of you driving them on. Is the largest sprocket low enough for you? If it's more than 6 speeds, you probably know about the risk of bent->broken axles. If the seller is willing to negotiate, I would hem and haw about being "stuck with a freewheel" (sorry, Pastor Bob) and see what happens with the price. On a tandem, a freewheel is indeed obsolete and can make the bike un-upgradeable for the reasons I mentioned.

Agree that good used tandems newer than this one (and more "famous", i.e., old Santanas) are not rare, as the baby boomers age out of this niche market. But that crankset...

KerryP

Looks like a good deal to me (but I bought US Steel at $14.88).

CliffordK

27" should be fine, but if you want 700c, then if the bike has been repainted, it wouldn't be a big deal to get the cantis moved.

And, with 700c, you should get lots of tire clearance depending on the chainstays.

Any other updates? I think I see two water bottle bosses, and a pump peg. Perhaps more water bottle bosses on the diagonal tubes?

xiaoman1 

TGB,
If the paint is nice and it fits you both I would negotiate as much as I could....keeping in mind that you don't see the short-coupled frame AND Campy cranks very often.
If I were to buy it I would go to the bay and get some decals and not worry if it was perfect.
Good Luck with the negotiations and let us know if you buy it,
Ben

TenGrainBread 

@conspiratemus1 Seller told me they are Phil hubs. I have no problem with freewheels and 5 or 6 speeds and regularly overhaul freewheels (if I can get them open). The reason I would rather do 700C (or 650b) is tire choice. I like using high-end, wide tires. I prefer something lightweight and and preferably wider than 35mm. Not really possible with 27". I am really not opposed to re-brazing the brake bosses for a smaller wheel, but a repaint costs more than I'd like to spend. The good thing about the bike being black is touch up is easy if I decide to re-braze the brake bosses.

It's funny to me that everyone assumes that I will have a stoker who is a shorter woman. I am in fact shorter than my girlfriend. The plan is for her to be the captain. The 21" rear / 22" front is a good fit for us, at least seat tube wise.

Your point about the rear being very short is well-taken. We'll make sure to test ride first.

repechage

I have one- 27" or surgery - I even think the picots are a bit high for the 27" rims and stock mafacs.
through a swap of rims that came on another bike- went hook rims I stead of module 58.
the rear is not really happy with a big tire- not enough room.
the Campagnolo tandem crank set up is almost worth the price of admission- I would buy- swap to a mod set up- sell those off and have a tandem for cheap.
if my family liked tandems- they don't- I would figure out a front disc- go 700 c and even consider a disc in back- the schwinn frame is not the most laterally rigid- with fillet brazing they could have done a lot- like the boom tube diameter on the down tube...

TenGrainBread 

Good info. I think this is a case of loving the idea of riding a Paramount tandem but it not being the best bike for our wants. I'll have to think about it.

The bike is being sold by a small shop in Southern WI in a garage sale tomorrow. If anyone wants to scoop it for themselves shoot me a DM and I'll give you the info.

xiaoman1 

Phil Wood hubs would seal the deal for me.... BTW, I thought you were the "Stoker".

CliffordK

Do you get the hoist too?

Doe that pivot at the bars and hoist the seat? Or hoist both?

conspiratemus1

Phil Wood hubs? Sold. No questions (other than "Does it fit?" (echoing @xiaoman1))

The repaint was probably done in black just so you'd feel better about re-setting the brake bosses for modern tires. Repainting a tandem is $$$$. Black touch-up in 4 spots with Rustoleum and a sponge-brush? Not so much.

Yes, jumped to conclusions about rank and station. We know a few teams where woman skippers. Makes sense if she is taller (or sees better.) Works well. With clipless pedals it's no biggie for you both to clip out if she has trouble holding both of you up herself with one foot. (In days of clips and straps it was hard for a stoker without track experience to get a foot back into a moving pedal so the Standard Method was The stoker never clips out.) One question I'd like to find an answer for, If the guy is in the back, do bystanders ever holler out, "He's not pedaling!"? Do make sure your captain knows what her rear-admiral expects of her.

Edit: Presumably the left stoker crank and the two captain cranks are from a track-racing tandem set. (Somebody went to a lot of trouble to build this bike.) In that case, the pedal threading on all 4 cranks should be the normal L on L and R on R. You should verify that that is the case -- it is possible to kludge together a cross-over tandem with junk parts where you switch single-bike cranks side for side. But then the pedals won't stay tight because they are now Wilbur and Orville "Wrong" threading. (from Sheldon Brown's old site somewhere.) Highly unlikely anyone did that here, but worth checking.

Jeff Wills

Huh? What makes you say that the cranks are some sort of homebrew?

A good friend had a similar Paramount tandem- Campy tandem triple cranks, Phil hubs. I think he ordered it like this direct from Schwinn- we were both mechanics at the local Schwinn shop.

conspiratemus1

My apologies. I didn't mean to imply that I suspected they were home-brew. I just observed that it is possible to do so. If I had ever seen a similarly equipped tandem in the flesh, as you have, I would not have put the possibility of a home-brew construction anywhere near as high as I did, and would likely not even have raised it. This is Bayes's theorem in action. Or, "if you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras....unless you're in the Serengeti." I think my mistake was forgetting we were in the Serengeti and I should have just said, "Wow, here come the zebras," instead of even thinking, "Well, they could still be just horses." I would therefore rescind my suggestion to make sure the pedals were screwed on as normal and just go with the assumption that of course they are.


And thank you for calling me on it.

merziac

No expert by any stretch but this was my thought exactly as well, especially when you see a Paramount set up exactly as it should be, that is when you assume it is what it is because it is.

I have seen more than a few Schwinn's set up with something like this that I had never seen done so well. They went to great lengths to get it right in cases like these when others didn't know, couldn't figure it out and ended up "making it work" by compromising in the end.

cqlink 

Ask the seller if he knows where the Mafac brakes are. Occasionally they're laying around somewhere. That would be a nice addition / score.

scarlson 

It's worth nearly the asking price for the cranks and pedals alone. If the Campy BBs are also good, you could probably make back your money on just the cranks, BBs, and pedals.

It would be nice if you could test ride it for a decent distance with your intended stoker. I have owned several old tandems, and each had its own distinct feel. A tandem's feel and comfort are harder to gauge than those of a single bike, and are highly dependent on the chemistry between captain and stoker. Some are like effortless magic, while others make the teamwork break down and turn rides into death marches. I have little idea why, but after 20 miles I'll know, which is why I recommend a good long test ride.

I bet you will be able to make 700c wheels work. I don't understand what all the fuss is about not being able to use 700c wheels on a frame designed for cantilevers with 27" wheels. I've done it on too many bikes to remember, and I've never not been able to! Trek, Univega, Schwinn, Nishiki, Colin Laing, Claud Butler, Panasonic, they all seem to work. I have used MAFAC, Dia Compe, Suntour, Scott/Pedersen, and Shimano brakes. Sometimes you have to adjust or angle the pads quite a bit toward one end of the range, but this seems, if anything, to improve mechanical advantage in my experience. Narrow rims, and rims with non-angled, vertical sidewalls help with the switch. It helps that traditional 27" rims were often quite wide and/or had angled sidewalls.

Let us know how it goes! It looks like a neat find.

merziac

Exactly this, where there's a will, there's a way, necessity is the mother of invention, yada, yada, especially with an opportunity like this. I would be on a mission, cranks would stay right where they are at and this would be sorted one way or another, I would have the final word, done.

All that said I would go with the 27's for the time being to see if it's a good fit for the team, if not then maybe part out, maybe address issues that could help and see.

This is a great find at a great price, I would be all over it if it were my size or near me. Looks to be in very good condition and very well taken care of.

The burning question, is the headbadge there? Can't see good enough from the pic, looks like it is from here.

repechage

Schwinn Paramount Tandems had TA tandem cranks often, but Campagnolo tandem cranks were an option, they are "factory" . With the correct RH/LH threading, even the dinal drive crank is a factory triple... this is a rare set. Last set I saw was already at $375 with a number of days to go. Smaller audience, bigger dollars would only be Herse tandem cranks or Campagnolo Pista Tandem crank complete sets.

This frame has been modified, note the braze-on waterbottle mounts.

merziac

Agreed, part of my point was that Schwinn excelled at doing it right, this is a perfect example. Seems like somebody was always standing by telling whomever, "get the right parts and get them on there correctly, and do it now". I believe they had no sense of humor especially when something like this was on the table, they excelled at getting it right regardless of what it took to do so, when a customer wanted something, they got it and it was done right.

steelbikeguy

the 1976 page for the short coupled Paramount tandem, just in case anyone is interested.....



full resolution version here:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4472/3...9c2ce9_o_d.jpg

Steve in Peoria

The Golden Boy 

The Sand Canyon tires are pretty cool:

https://www.swifttire.com/product/sa...8-folding-tan/

Whether they'll fit... that's another matter.

CV-6 

The bike at $500 is a steal.

Just be sure your partner is sold on the idea of a tandem. I made the mistake of buying one and presenting it as a fait accompli. My wife did two rides on it and even I knew she did not really enjoy it. So the tandem hangs in the basement slowly surrendering parts for other projects.