Long Rides on a Tandem
#51
Junior Member
If your toes hurt, it's probably because your saddle is too high and you're pedaling toes-down. Better to have the foot level at the bottom of the stroke, heel-down on the power stroke and heel-up on the backstroke. I start setting my saddle height using the heel-on-pedal method....
Thank you for the warning based on your experience, yes I'm way too active to risk messing up my feet!
#52
just another gosling
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I'm early in a relationship with a lady bicyclist and we've ridden a few times on my tandem. Maybe it's because I'm more of a higher cadence, lower pedal pressure kind of rider than she is used to on her single bikes, but she feels she doesn't really get the workout on the tandem that she does on her single. For sure, I seem to be working harder. I think maybe the dual HR monitor might help. What brand/model do you recommend?
We go by breathing for a rough guide. If I hear her panting and I'm not, I tell her to back it off. If I'm panting and she's chatting I ask her for a little more power or I just say, "Are you with me?" Starting a hill using HR, Stoker will always lag my effort because my HR takes a while to come up. OTOH, after my effort her power stays high a little too long. So it's not perfect, but kindness and understanding helps, as always. Following another bike, she holds steady power and I vary mine to keep the right distance. That works pretty well.
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#53
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While I generally agree with your point that a tandem team is going to climb at the rate dictated by the sum of their w/kg, I think you're overstating the case a bit in this example.
Unless we're talking a very shallow grade, the tandem team in this example is going to be a bit slower. The captain's power out put on a tandem is going to have about a 7% efficiency loss in the drive train, compared to a 2% loss for both the stoker and the single rider. At most climbing speeds on a steep grade the loss of efficiency would outweigh any minute aero advantage.
Additionally, most tandem teams typically would lose a bit more than just the captain's drive train loss due to less than perfect coordination between the two riders, such as standing.
Unless we're talking a very shallow grade, the tandem team in this example is going to be a bit slower. The captain's power out put on a tandem is going to have about a 7% efficiency loss in the drive train, compared to a 2% loss for both the stoker and the single rider. At most climbing speeds on a steep grade the loss of efficiency would outweigh any minute aero advantage.
Additionally, most tandem teams typically would lose a bit more than just the captain's drive train loss due to less than perfect coordination between the two riders, such as standing.
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#54
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Just feel for that heel cup all the time. You could be pointing your toes even if your saddle is at the perfect height, whatever that is. It's an easy habit to fall into. I do it myself when I'm distracted. We climb stairs toe-down, after all.
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#55
pan y agua
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You may remember the tandem team we used to have on here composed of M-F track racers. Their tandem time on Mt. Diablo was the average of their single bike times. I don't know where you got the efficiencies for captain and stoker, but whereas a tandem (with the exception of BBs) has one of everything, 2 singles have 2 of everything. So I don't get that a tandem is less mechanically efficient than the sum of 2 singles. I do get that a team that isn't well synched will definitely suffer power losses. Even after lots of practice, we still don't climb well out of the saddle. OTOH, my stoker can't ride out of the saddle at all on her single. So we are definitely better on the tandem than on 2 singles.
I didn't find the reference in a quick google search, but it's somewhere in BF archives.
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#56
pan y agua
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Found the reference. Testing by BF's own ASU_GT, found a 6% loss for the captain, and a 1.8% loss for the stoker. So I was off by a percent.
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cy...nsmission.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cy...nsmission.html
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#57
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the 7% power loss for the captain has been referenced on several previous BF threads. IIRC it comes from one or more studies. The explanation for the loss is the captain's power has to be transferred through 2 bb's and two chains to get to the hub. It's one of the arguments for making the stronger rider the stoker.
I didn't find the reference in a quick google search, but it's somewhere in BF archives.
I didn't find the reference in a quick google search, but it's somewhere in BF archives.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#58
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For a conventional tandem drivetrain that does not have IPS, it should not be the assumption that the Captain's power is anymore impacted by the drivetrain components than the Stoker. Even if a tandem were locked in a trainer and the Stoker assessed separately for power output they would still activate the Captains bottom bracket and the timing chain. The only explanation for the measured difference in the combined power of a tandem team vs the Captain and Stoker separately is due to the difficulty of synchronizing independent powerplants. Triples are worse, Quads even worse. That's why 8 man tandem craft have never taken off. 8 man rowed shells compete with a non-rowing Coxswain who functions mainly to coordinate the efforts of the Crew. Even so, the primary benefit of pairing, trebling and more of individual efforts is social vs performance. An 8 man rowed shell is not 8x faster than a single scull, not even close to that. The aerodynamics of the close drafting position of the Stoker behind the Captain should outweigh all of the drivetrain inefficiencies. What is left is Companionship and Sociability. A fair trade, I think.
#59
Junior Member
For a conventional tandem drivetrain that does not have IPS, it should not be the assumption that the Captain's power is anymore impacted by the drivetrain components than the Stoker. Even if a tandem were locked in a trainer and the Stoker assessed separately for power output they would still activate the Captains bottom bracket and the timing chain. The only explanation for the measured difference in the combined power of a tandem team vs the Captain and Stoker separately is due to the difficulty of synchronizing independent powerplants. .
I am not an engineer, so if I am missing something here, please comment.
Tailwinds,
Charlie
Charlie
#60
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There is the loss of efficiency (of the captains power) thru the timing chain and drive chain, plus the (loss) flexing of a longer frame, and the flex of the boom tube as the captain pedals. These things rob some of the captains power before it gets to the rear wheel and not in play (other than the drive chain) for the stoker's power delivery.
I am not an engineer, so if I am missing something here, please comment.
I am not an engineer, so if I am missing something here, please comment.
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My wife and I are admittedly far younger, but we find the tandem is the best tool for long rides. Inevitably on a really long ride, there will be times that each person isn't feeling their best. By sharing a bike, you'll be able to ride through those situations without having without having to meter your efforts. Even if one person bonks or cramps, the other can help in a meaningful way. There's little more demoralizing than riding separate single bikes with someone who doesn't have the energy to keep going -- and not being able to help.
My wife also finds it easier to eat, drink, and take pictures from the back of the tandem. As captain, I enjoy having unwrapped snacks handed to me. You'll both get that feeling of accomplishment by working together.
My wife also finds it easier to eat, drink, and take pictures from the back of the tandem. As captain, I enjoy having unwrapped snacks handed to me. You'll both get that feeling of accomplishment by working together.
Last edited by dragonlord76; 07-02-18 at 04:21 PM. Reason: typo
#62
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All the above said, yesterday a steel CoMo tandem in our group with a well-trained but ordinary 50's team knocked out a 5800', 55 mile ride with no problems. They had a great time.
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#63
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My wife generally prefers her single to the tandem because she says that I pedal too fast and never coast, which is a lot harder than when she rides her single and can cruise along at a low cadence coasting every few pedal strokes. It's way slower but she doesn't care about speed or distance so it's irrelevant to her.
#64
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the 7% power loss for the captain has been referenced on several previous BF threads. IIRC it comes from one or more studies. The explanation for the loss is the captain's power has to be transferred through 2 bb's and two chains to get to the hub. It's one of the arguments for making the stronger rider the stoker.
I didn't find the reference in a quick google search, but it's somewhere in BF archives.
I didn't find the reference in a quick google search, but it's somewhere in BF archives.
One of my stokers is of similar ability to me and if we ride with our usual group of singles on the tandem we definitely struggle more on the hills than usual. It isn't a huge difference but definitely noticeable.
#65
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I also have found climbing to be a bit slower on the tandem.
One of my stokers is of similar ability to me and if we ride with our usual group of singles on the tandem we definitely struggle more on the hills than usual. It isn't a huge difference but definitely noticeable.
One of my stokers is of similar ability to me and if we ride with our usual group of singles on the tandem we definitely struggle more on the hills than usual. It isn't a huge difference but definitely noticeable.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#66
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Mid-60 is old??? Really!!!
At that age we were still riding lots of centuries on tandems.
Now at ages 85/83 we've mellowed quite a bit but still get out once or twice a week.
Agreed, not as fast and not as far! Go for it!
We've ridden over a quarter million miles TWOgether on tandems since 1975. Now on tandem #5 and this one has over 45,000 miles on the odo.
Pedal on !
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
At that age we were still riding lots of centuries on tandems.
Now at ages 85/83 we've mellowed quite a bit but still get out once or twice a week.
Agreed, not as fast and not as far! Go for it!
We've ridden over a quarter million miles TWOgether on tandems since 1975. Now on tandem #5 and this one has over 45,000 miles on the odo.
Pedal on !
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
#67
Senior Member
Thread Starter
To bring this up to date, we just got home from the Ride from Seattle to Vancouver plus Party (RSVP), 106 miles/4000 feet of climbing the first day, and 81 miles/2600 feet of climbing the second day. We rode the tandem. It was a blast.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Thanks for the encouragement!
#69
Full Member
Don’t ignore foot pain while pedaling. I started developing a “hot spot” a couple of seasons back when I significantly increased my mileage. Nothing had changed shoe or equipment wise so I chalked it up to the mileage and powered through it. Big mistake, I ended up developing a Hausers neuroma (same as a Morton’s neuroma but between the third and fourth metatarsals). I was able to relieve the pain somewhat by setting the cleats all the back. I am in constant pain and surgery is planned for this coming winter.
So take care of your most important cycling interface and don’t ignore foot pain.
So take care of your most important cycling interface and don’t ignore foot pain.
#71
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Today was surgery day to remove my neuroma. Picture is of the stoker hopping the future will result in a captain that is pain free (I.e. stronger ��). It had progressed to point that a 30 mile ride was too much pain. I am looking at about 3-6 weeks off the bikeand hopefully it will be worth it. As I said above, don't ignore pains in the body to bike contact points (or any other points for that matter).
#72
Full Member
Thanks folks. I did schedule surgery for the off season, but when you ride year round, it is still frustrating to not even be able to use the trainer.. This soon should pass