Kapusta

dabac

It's because you're switching references. Saddle height is is set from the bottom bracket, and is rider adjustable. Saddle-to-ground is saddle height + bottom bracket height off ground. And BB height - for various reasons pretty much stays the same regardless of rider/frame size. This means that a shorter (legged) rider will be proportionally farther off the ground than a taller(longer legged) rider. The legs and the corresponding reach from good pedaling position to full extension gets shorter, but the bb height stays the same.

The industry doesn't scale all the parts when going from one size bike to another. Bikes are built to allow people to pedal through (most) turns w/o the inside pedal hitting the ground. Since crankarm length and q-factor (crankset width) doesn't change much (or at all) with different rider sizes, a smaller rider has to sit proportionally higher than a taller rider.
You could make smaller riders have the same reach to the ground as taller riders. But it'd require making more thorough changes. Dropping the BB to give the same clearance with shorter cranks. Maybe assuming a shorter rider ALSO have smaller feet and can use shorter pedal spindles/narrower cranks etc.

Well, at SOME degree of tilt, everybody will make it. Question is how useful/comfortable it is.
To me, even at 182 cm, it's toes-to-ground if I want to remain in saddle. For a comfy, flat footed stance I have to get off the saddle.
And even that isn't a given.
I sold my 29er mtb b/c the sum of parts, fork travel, type/size of headset/steerer tube/head tube etc created a high, straight top tube that I was barely able to straddle anywhere else but right in front of the saddle.

Bah Humbug

Crank arm length normally varies by 5mm. It maxes out at 10mm. If the bottom of the pedal stroke is close enough to the ground to touch it with your toes, either you're at severe risk of pedal strike around corners or you have a very slack seat tube. And still, the height at which a road saddle is normally off the ground for pedaling should make this impossible. I'd be curious to see an image of what the OP means; it seems likely the people in question are forward off the saddle or tilting the bike.

Trsnrtr

Quoted for truth. On most bikes that I've owned and I've owned a boat load, I can not touch the ground while seated.

Caliper

Pretty common when the GCN guys are chatting before comparing two bikes, check these clips. Yes, there is some bike tilt and they are on their toes, but nothing too extreme. I've failed when trying to do this...

Here at 24 sec:

14 sec in this one:

Skip forward to 1:36:


Edit: those links were supposed to play from a certain timestamp, but that doesn't seem to be working on my computer... added time reference.

wphamilton

Exactly. And once you're seated and moving it doesn't matter.

jack002

Some people are missing the fact that short legs can extend less far than long legs can. The height of the pedal is constant and the reach you need to touch the ground is harder for shorter people. I am 6'0" and can put one foot down seated, not two, and feel somewhat unweildy and will unseat if I feel like I might fall over.

noodle soup

this is exactly what I do at shorter stops. I'm curious how one fails at do this.

If it's a longer stop, I might sit on the top tube.

Dave Cutter

I think... for me... the most important part is the amount of bend in my knee.... as I begin my [cycling] downward stroke. I think too much pressure or an overly bend knee [when cycling] is an unnatural and destructive position. To keep my original equipment knees in working order, I believe keeping my weight in check helps . And since I spend a lot of hours cycling.... I think proper position when pedaling might also help preserve the condition of my knees. I know they make new knees as many of my friends have had their knees replaced. New knees are certainly a better idea than the painful and disabling effect of worn-out knees. But still.... a stitch in time....

I don't mind unclipping and leaning my bike a bit to put a foot on the ground from time-to-time.

woodcraft

Pros (& ex pros) tend to have more knee bend & lower saddle height

relative to middle of the road amateurs.

Caliper

Ok, why though? What do they gain by the lower saddle?

DrIsotope

The window of adjustment for us mortals is around 10Ί of ankle to hip angle (say a leg angle of 140-150Ί), and the pros won't be far from that. There is no hard and fast rule about saddle height-- if it's comfortable, ride it. I'm more comfortable when my saddle is higher, my knees start to complain pretty quickly when it's too low. The pros are also all stem-slammers, riding bikes that are too small, so their bodies are often contorted into positions we couldn't manage for even an hour or two. Don't look at pro cyclists as examples of proper fit.

And whatever you do, don't look at time trialists or triathletes.

woodcraft

More fluid pedal stroke, & many folks just have their saddle too high.

DrIsotope

99% of recreational cyclists going in for their first bike fit have their saddle too low. Often because they want to be able to touch the ground while seated.

woodcraft

Yes, but among up-and-running cyclists, I notice a lot of this:




I'm not saying to emulate saddle/bar drop, but nothing wrong with looking at pro's knee bend & to some degree hip angle:

DaveSSS 

I've seen plenty of pics where a pro has the outside heel horizontal and the leg fully extended, while cornering (not pedaling). It's only the normal heel rise while pedaling that creates the bend at the knee. That saddle height looks unusually low to me.

I can drop my heel slightly below horizontal with my leg full extended. I can't come close to touching the pavement without getting off the saddle.

Bah Humbug

That looks strange to me, but without being there, it doesn't look impossible for them to be tilted enough to make this possible. It also looks like they might be sliding partway to the side and tilting their pelvis laterally. I'm still curious why you perceive this as preferable to just sliding forward off the saddle when stopped, then lifting back up as you start pedaling.

Caliper

Yes it did look strange when I first noticed it. I just know that when I have attempted this, the bike is at a ridiculous angle and there is no way I could start out like they are able to.

It's more just curiosity than preference for how one stands when preparing to ride away. Sitting on the bike and looking cool on one tiptoe isn't my main goal, but what in their setup leaves them able to do this? These guys aren't noobs, so their bike fit is probably pretty decent and is fairly different from mine. Maybe I can learn something.

Bah Humbug

I just checked on my bike. With 165mm cranks where manufacturers would spec 172.5, I can just barely do it, but it's uncomfortable. Would an extra 7.5mm help? Of course. It would still be uncomfortable, and seems pointless. It's interesting that these guys do it, but I don't see anyone else do it, pro or otherwise.

I still wouldn't sweat it.

SylvainG

Never thought about it until reading this thread so today, I checked and I can easily touch the ground from the saddle. Not even just the tip of my toes but the full toes are on the ground. I'm 5'8" and my saddle is set so I'm almost at full extension, pushing my heel down a bit would fully extend my leg. My bike is a Large size.

69chevy

bleui

I'm only 5'7 and can comfortably use my toe when stopping, I think most who can't do this have too high of a saddle. The Cavendish pic above is a good example of how a knee should bend on the 6 o'clock position

DrIsotope

Well, I'm 7 inches taller than you and absolutely cannot touch the ground when in the saddle. If I were to lower my saddle to the point where I could, my knees would probably rebel and attempt to leave my body.

growlerdinky

I was going to post in here with some kind of vague and snarky comment without actually contributing to this think tank. Then I was out riding, and as I rolled to a stop, this thread popped into my head and I tried it. I did it.

I put my left toe on the ground while in the saddle. It was ok. I couldn't see sitting through a traffic cycle like that, though.

I eased forward from my saddle, and crouched on the top tube...

"Unless he had been racing, there is no way that he could match my speed."

69chevy