surgeonstone

Not if the sensory input fails you and you have come to rely upon it.
Case in point, Riding on US 12 in southern Michigan a couple years back, nice day, quiet roads, doing about 20 mph into a 15 mph breeze. I am going to make a left onto a quiet country lane, no traffic behind me but I look anyway, there, barreling down on top of me is an 18 wheeler that I did not in the least hear. Had I depended on hearing to move left I would have been road kill. WTF I thought, how is it possible I did not hear that behemouth on top of me. I could list examples like this all day and with electric vehicles they are becoming more frequently an issue.
The lesson for me is to NEVER depend upon my hearing, which is actually quite good, when cycling. Why never you ask, why not use it with your other senses?
Better still ask yourself why would you want to depend upon something that is so variable.
The effect on me of these 40 years experience is simple, always look behind you, then look again , then make your move. It has saved my life more than once.

MetalPedaler

Well, I'll tell ya, I don't doubt that Bob knows a lot about cycling, and I would respect his advice on most things cycling related- but when my hide is on the line, I'm ultimately going to do what I feel is most prudent- and I've come to trust my observations and experiences, being 50 years old, and having managed to remain safe and uninjured, despite often having been in rather dangerous environments.

I find that my opinion is often in the minority or goes against the grain; against the "accepted norm" of the day....but you'd be surprised how often I turn out to be right and ahead of my time.

Case in point: In the 1970's, when I was just a kid, they would actually tell you to open the windows of your house during a tornado warning- stating that doing so would "equalize the pressure inside the house". This was the official policy of the National Weather Service- developed by scientists, and preached as gospel to the public as a valid and prudent action.

I was only a kid, but the minute I heard that, I said "What nonsense!"- knowing full well, if your house sustained wind force and pressure enough to damage it, the windows would blow out before the pressure even got to that point. Common sense. Of course, I was laughed at for contradicting the "scientists"- I was just a kid.

Now, of course, the NWS has abandoned that utterly ridiculous theory. Now, they mock at the folly of such an idea, and say the very same thing that I knew to be true as a mere child. But try convincing anyone else of that truth in 1975- when the NWS and radio DJs are preaching it as scietific fact......

If something is true, it should be easy enough to prove it's validity. One little demonstration under very specific non real-world conditions doesn't prove anything- it is just anecdotal.

Say, didn't I read on here that Bob got squished 20 years ago? Not that it couldn't happen to any of us- truly, if you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, sometimes things are just unavoidable...but......uh....I'll continue doing what I think is most prudent, unless someone can truly convince me that something else is truly better.

(((Wow! That light is truly visible for a MILE in daylight? Does it come with it's own nuke-yular reactor? )))))))

Bob Dopolina 

There. That is the false premise you are reasoning from.

You absolutely do NOT need sensory input to make decisions about where to be on the road. If you are relying on that you are making choices far too late.

Instead you should be making choices WELL AHEAD of time that eliminate the dangerous situation entirely.

MetalPedaler

Where did I ever say that we should depend on one sense to the exclusion of all others? You're the one who is saying that some senses are dismissable. I'm saying that we should use all available senses as much as possible. I didn't say that we should just listen and not look- I'm saying that sometimes a combination of senses will gtive us an advantage/help-out when another sense may be at a disadvantage.

Bob Dopolina 

Like.

The interesting this is that it points out how much filtering and filling the sub-conscious does and how unreliable our senses can be.

But the subconscious can be trained to pick up clues that it feels are important. Tests on athlete show how this reduces reaction times and helps with anticipation.

MetalPedaler

How could you make such a choice ahead of time, if you don't have the sensory input to know what choice would be more prudent?

I'm riding along, staying to the right on a narrow road [this actually happened]; A pitbull comes running out of someone's driveway. Naturally, I do not automatically swerve.....and especially not, as I hear a semi coming behind me [before I had a chance to see it in my mirror]. So swerving was out. Two choices left: Keep going straight, or stop where I was. I chose to stop where I was [Best way to deal with a chasing dog- plus I didn't want the poor doggie to run out and get hit by the semi].

The more I am aware, at all times, of what is going on around me, the more time I have to make decisions/react/take evasive action/position myself so that I don't need to take evasive action.

Another case: I'm again heading up a narrow country road, approaching a steep curving hill. It's a very lightly travelled road. I hear the sound of tractors ahead. I slowed down and proceeded with extra caution. Then, I see cars coming at me on my side of the raod. There is a flat area of dirt on my right- so I pull in....and here come the cars, fully in my lane, due to tree maintenance being done on the road ahead, and the tractors working/debris laying on the other side of the road ahead.

In this case, hearing the tractors ahead bought me extra time and space to give me the option to get off the road. Had I not heard them, I would have found myself in a situation where there was nowhere to go...and would have been at the mercy of the drivers to try and make enough romm for me as I hugged the right edge of the road between them and the ditch.

You're proving my point for me- why are we arguing?

Bob Dopolina 

Experience.

First, sudden, random **** occurs and not much can prepare you for that. Luck plays a factor.

Second, why could you only swerve one way? Is it because you were TOO FAR to the right and only had one escape route. This is a mistake.

If the wind was blowing the other way you wouldn't have heard the tractors anyway. How relaible are your ears then? Sometimes they help and sometimes they are useless.

Unless you come around a bend and are head to head with a car you should be able to flick your bike around them. This would be the skill part I mentioned earlier. It could be a car, dog, pothole or flying squishy. Avoiding obstacles is a skill one must develop to stay upright.

Brian Ratliff

DayGlo ain't getting it. It is hard to convince someone the subconscious exists if he is never willing to trust it. I have found the predictive abilities one learns in racing to be directly transferable to riding and driving. I distinctly remember one time in a race when I noticed myself reacting to a wheel shifting in the pack prior to the wheel moving all that much and well prior to the movement (and my reaction movement, for that matter) entering my conscious mind. It's the same skill that automatically draws my eye to a car the next lane over on the freeway right before it starts moving into my lane. You ride enough, and you pick up on very very subtle cues to make predictions. In a race, maybe it's the very slight countersteer that indicates the start of a sudden swerve. On the freeway maybe it's the slight deceleration of a car hanging back to start the process of changing lanes. It's pattern matching, matching the dynamics of the cars (or bikes) around you with the geometry of the situation.

All that said, there are different strategies people use to stay safe on the road. Some, like DayGlo, prefer to keep on the safe side by giving very very wide margins to their safety procedures. Others, like Bob, prefer to hone their intuitions and predictive ability. Wide margins guy has the disadvantage of not really knowing what to do when the margins are unavoidably small. Predictive ability guy is sometimes going to be surprised and rely on quick reactions in the face of small margins to deal with those situations which go against his internal model of the world.

You'd think ideally you'd do both, but I don't think this is possible. Wide margins guy never will gain the skills to rely on prediction. Those skills are gained by using them and to use them one needs to ride with small margins. Predictive ability guy relies on continual updating of his internal model to hone his predictions (the knife is always dulling) and that requires always riding with small margins to stay sharp. Fact is, riding on a bike at 20mph mixed with traffic of much larger and much faster cars will always have some risk. Myself, I prefer predictive ability to keep myself safe on the road; I am relatively young and strong and have been riding continuously amongst traffic since I was an early teen. If you are 50 year old father (or mother) of two who is just taking up the sport, it might be wise to go the wide margins route.

cplager

Dinotte are the gold standard for tail lights (and if money's no object - get one of those). That being said, I saw a review of rear blinkies for $50 or less and the Cygolite Hotshot 2 watt tail light was by far and away the brightest. You can see it very well in the daytime (it's too bright to look at directly).

As far as the importance of hearing, I agree that one shouldn't depend on your hearing, but that hearing can provide useful clues.

Riding safe requires several important pieces, most of which mentioned in this thread:

* You want to be aware of your surroundings and predict the various possibilities that are about to happen (e.g., a door opening, a car turning right right in front of you, ...)

* Make yourself as visible as possible, but assume you aren't seen.

* Ride predictably and signal your intentions. This makes it easier for drivers to predict what you are going to do and I find things go much more smoothly when I do this well.

* When road conditions are suck that you and a car can not fit in a single lane, ride so that a car won't try (take the lane).

Cheers,
Charles

Dilberto

Two things come to mind:

1) NO headphones - you wanna first hear what is about to mow you down
2) Crane that neck - constantly look over your left shoulder. My first encounter with a car occurred because I stupidly "assumed" cars would see me, and kept looking straight. Tunnel vision can kill you.

MetalPedaler

experience will tell you what to do AFTeR your sight/hearing/mind tell you that something needs to be done. If you're riding along on a city street and have a green light, you glance both ways across the intersection before you cross it, right? It is only if you See movement on the cross st. -or maybe hear an engine operating at higher than idle, that you might take evasive action and stop before the intersection, right? Otherwise, having no sensory input that someone may be running the light, you will proceed through the intersection, would you not? It is only the sensory input of detecting motion where motion should not be, that would make you stop....or are you going to tell me that you stop at every green light because of experience?





Well...let's see: A narrow country road with no shoulder. The road is maybe 12-14' wide, and a ditch on the right. There IS nowhere to go. Only three choices: Hold your line; Go left; Stop. Left was not an option, as the semi was coming. Holding my line, I might have gotten bit; or the dog may have made me fall into the path of the semi, or have gotten hit himself. In that case, stopping at the dog's driveway was the best choice. Really the only prudent choice.



You're missing the point- I obviously couldn't go around the cars by going to the left, or I'd have to go in front of the cars [and get hit]- and there is nowhere to go on the right- unless falling into a 3' ditch is an option. Had I not had advance warning that "something was up" ahead, it would have been a case of merely trying to squeeze by moving cars in desperation, balancing in the inch or two between them and the ditch, and just hoping I make it. I prefer to instead not have to be in situations like that- although as you say, even with the utmost care, it can still happen. But my point is: Using as many of one's senses as one can, so that they can take advantage of all of the available clues, THeN allows them to use their experience to react in the proper way, and within time to avoid the hazard. Otherwise, hey, just close your eyes; plug your ears, get drunk, and go for a ride!

surgeonstone

Sounds like ya got it all worked out...hope you really don't need the windows open

Jobiensis

If you didn't hear the semi, would going left be an option? I think this is a pretty good case where depending on hearing is a bad idea. If you don't have time to look back, you probably shouldn't veer into traffic.

MetalPedaler

LOL! Reminds me of a line I heard in a cartoon: "Someone dropped an anvil out of a window as I was walking by; luckily, I was carrying an umbrella.".

MetalPedaler

No- but the thing is, hearing the semi, gave me advance warning- I already knew going left wasn't option, rather than having to take extra time to check my mirro/turn my head. In situations where reaction time may be limited, every little bit helps.

surgeonstone

The road quality and traffic levels are typical of my rides, the curves and the hills are not. Pretty area.

Bob Dopolina 

@ DayGloGuy

I honestly think you really don't understand my point. If you have to CONSCIOUSLY process sensory information it's already too fricken' late.

With EXPERIENCE you make choices BEFORE sensory input happens and completely independent of any sensory input. You seem unable or unwilling to grasp this concept. In every situation you describe I would have made choices long before you were aware of any potential problems that would have removed me from danger before it even arose.

Stop for a second and try to conceptualize my meaning before responding.

Ask yourself if it is possible for your SUB-CONSCIOUS to pick up on information and make decisions without your conscious mind ever being aware of this process that could lead to a DECREASED likelihood of dangerous situations.

If even this concept seems unimaginable to you then you are destined to be fodder.

MetalPedaler

Yeah, these roads are really ideal for riding- you can go for hours sometimes, without ever having to come to a stop. quite different from NYC where i used to ride....- where you have to stop every block, and dodge pedestrians!

Bob Dopolina 

Nice riding and VERY tame.

Hearing helps YOU because you haven't leaned and don't trust other skills that are far more reliable.

MetalPedaler

You're talking about being psychic...riding with a crystal ball (I know an old guy who was born in Transylvania....that might work for him...]

I do believe your brain can react to stimuli so fast that it seems to be subconscious- but is STILL processing inputs of the senses. If not, like I said, close your eyes, plug your ears and get drunk and ride. What difference would it make? What may seem subconscious, is just a super-fast automatic reaction- based on stimuli and experience and anticipation. The more information available for the brain to process, the quicker the reaction, and the better the chance of avoiding mishap.

MetalPedaler

Give me an example. When I descending that fast descent, where the road curves at the bottom of the hill just across the little side-less bridge....what other skills would help me if I were barreling down there at 37MPH and a large truck came flying the other way at 5oMPH, taking up the whole road? Hitting the loose gravel/broken pavement at that speed, is not much of a skill.

Yes, that is a very tame road, because there are few cars- but the thing is, people drive fast and recklessly...and are not expecting bikes. It's the bigger roads- with a double-yellow line and more traffic and no shoulders which can be scary. There are a few roads that I will just not ride on. But these back roads are ideal- but one could easily get in trouble if they let their guard down. [Like flying in the opposite direction down the hill on the other side of the bridge once, an oblivious old lady was out getting her mail, and never had a clue that I existed- I slowed to a crawl, because I knew she was going to walk right out in front of me without even looking- which she did. I went around back of her- and I do not even think she knew that I was ever there.]

surgeonstone

Very nice. Reminds me of where I used to live in southern Ohio, a qyuaint and small, very pretty river town called Gallipolis. Riding there was pretty though the very sharp turns, tight curves, narrow roads and large SUV's sporting extra wide rear view mirrors had me wondering a lot how long before my inevitable decapitation. Fortunately I moved before it occurred.

Brian Ratliff

You are making up arguments now. The brain operates on the senses, there is no one arguing that. The issue is you learn to "read the road" and keep yourself out of situations where you have to rely absolutely on your senses and reactions. And I agree that if these are your typical riding roads, then you have been riding in pretty tame situations. It's a different world on city streets and high speed rural highways.

Brian Ratliff

If there is a gap to ride through, you ride through it. If the driver is on the wrong side of the road and there really is no gap, then evasive action it is. This calculus doesn't change a huge amount going from 37mph to 25. The road is predicated on following the rules; there are only so may options if a road member decides not to follow the rules. I suspect Bob will be better than you at successfully using evasive action. I also suspect that the "gap to ride through" can be quite a bit smaller for Bob than it is for you.

You talk a lot about "stopping before trouble". This tells me you've been very cautious, which would explain why you and Bob are not hooking up your conceptual pictures per my previous post. I suspect that most of the situations you listed would not have resulted in any action at all by a rider with Bob's skills. In the vast majority of "close calls" I've had, stopping was not an option.

hunterr41

not true. You have to cross a street or ride very short distance. Plus what about driveways. People don't expect bicycles on sidewalks.