blaine

I have been doing a lot of my exercise outside this summer; running, mountain and road cycling.

I moved outside about 2 mnths ago and at that time was doing some spinning and spin classes inside about 4 times a week.

This morning I went back to spin for an hour for the first time in about 2 months.

I noticed that I was able to keep my heart rate at a higher level (150-155 bpm) for a much longer period of time with what seems like the same effort. Prior to this if I was at 150-155 bpm for more than 15 minutes I felt like I was pushing myself.

Now here is the paradox I am not sure of. Typically I think that if your heart rate is higher with the same perceived effort, you are not in as good of shape. Is this true?

Does this make sense.

FYI I am 55 yo.

thanks much

redlude97

Your RPE is not a good estimate of actual power output. If you are improving your fitness, then 2 main things can happen: Your Functional Threshold Power(FTP) can go up, so at the same RPE you are putting out more power and thus going faster, and/or your Lactate Threshold HR can go up(usually only for beginners) as they develop the ability to sustain a higher HR and process more lactate etc. Its too late to time your older untrained self to compare to your newer stronger self, but thats likely what is going on.

blaine

canklecat

Heart rate alone isn't always useful as any sort of guideline. I have a thyroid disease so my heart rate and blood pressure fluctuate wildly sometimes. I monitor my HR and BP but I mostly go by how I feel. During some workouts I feel strong regardless of how weird my HR and BP are. Other times my HR/BP look fine, but I feel awful. I just ride according to how I feel.

At age 60, the only guideline I follow, more or less, is to keep my maximum effort heart rate around 160, although occasionally I've gone up to 175 for some indoor sprint HIIT sessions. Usually I keep it around 130-145 for indoor trainer sessions of 45 minutes to an hour or longer.

Shimagnolo

I normally ride every second day.
I have noticed that if I happen to take one or more additional rest days before a riding day, I can drive my HR higher than usual, with the same perceived effort.
And when I dump the ride stats out of the Garmin Edge, it invariably shows me that with the higher HR, I am also faster.

Seattle Forrest

Lactate threshold heart rate (LTHR) has a genetic maximum. Most fitness things do. But you reach your limit pretty quickly with LTHR. Could take years of work to reach your full potential in some things, but LTHR goes up as you get into basic shape, and then you basically hit a limit and it doesn't really change much.

blaine

Several years ago I would spin on a trainer and maintain a steady 140 bpm for an hour after warming up. This gets a little boring after a while, so I find that if I typically would use 140 bpm as a base and do some HIIT up to about 158 or so.

I have yet to find that it is more difficult to maintain that HR as I age, but man its starting to take a little longer to recover.

redlude97

This. It mostly has to do with your ability to get your lactate threshold close to your VO2max, which generally climbs quickly from an untrained state and reaches a peak. You then can either work hard to either push your LTHR% closer to VO2max or increase your VO2max ceiling, both of which are hard to do and will only see marginal improvements. The way most people gain fitness is to increase efficiency/economy at LT and/or increase their ability to sustain their LT. My LTHR has plateaued for ~ 3 years, but my power output at LTHR ie FTP has continued to climb.

blaine

ok that makes sense...does your HR stay stay in the same zone then as you are increasing your LT and power output or does it increase?

redlude97

If I understand your question, my 20 min LTHR is 193bpm, and has stayed there for ~3 years. This is the HR I can sustain for 30-60 mins at a max steady effort. The power I can make there has increased ~15% in that timeframe(estimated for the first 1.5 years from sustained climbs) since i just got a PM at the end of last year.

Richard Cranium

There is some truth in your statement. However, just because you "perceive" something hardly makes two differing efforts an accurate measure of CV efficiency. (way too many other unmentioned variables) (way- way too many!)

It's good to pay attention to your workouts. But this thread produces conjecture and serves no real purpose.

chelvel

I'm 55 too and trying to find sense in all that training thing... First of all: why train and not just ride? HR monitor helps me not to push myself too much.

kcjc

Rating of perceived exertion has a same continuum with HR. Look up Borg Scale (1-10 scale is an abridge version, and you need to adjust (normalize) based on your maximum heart rate unless it's 200 bpm). Each jump is 10% (20 beats if you have a max HR of 200 bpm) so yes you could have higher bpm for the same RPE rating. You need another matrix to tie the two together. Ideally, work. For example, with the similar environmental factor (temp, wind, slope, etc) your can ride 15mph for x minutes at RPE of 6 instead of 7, you are getting fitter. IMHO, it's useful as general trend (over a few weeks or months) but too crude for day-to-day assessment. And FYI, HRM is useless for HIIT; your interval is over before your HR catches up.

fstrnu

Nothing wrong with just riding and if your goal is to be faster on the terrain in which you ride then riding is good training in itself. It's often when an athlete wants to compete in a higher category or on different terrain that he gets more serious about training because relative weaknesses need to be worked on, relative strengths exploited, simulating target event terrain, long intervals for climbing, etc.

Carbonfiberboy 

I would point out that most riders who are trying to get stronger don't ride easily enough nor hard enough. The effort in the middle is less helpful than the ends of the spectrum. IOW one wants to be either going as hard as possible or recovering from same with easy riding. That's the ideal, but it's not as much fun as just toodling along, so there's that. On training rides, You want to use your HRM to make sure you are going very hard for short periods and then easy enough to recover from them. It's on long rides at your distance limit that you want to limit effort, but don't do those very often. On hard training rides, you want to go so hard you have difficulty walking when you get off the bike at the end. At the end of easy training rides, you want to feel refreshed.

chelvel

I can ride faster, but then my average HR will be higher. You mean I can ride faster with the same AHR, if I train? If so how can this happen? I ride in start-stop mode most of time. Many many HR and spead peaks. I see no difference year after year in averages.

If I get it right one can get larger heart as a result of training and it will reduce HR. Next, one can get more mitochondria and it can help for longish rides. I don't want larger heart and I have no plans to ride longer hours. It would be nice to ride 50% faster with the same HR, but I don't think it's possible.

redlude97

Why do you think mitochondria will only help for longish rides? All cycling is primarily aerobic, even the majority of "anaerobic" efforts ie over 6 seconds have a large aerobic contribution? It sounds like since you continue to repeat these intermediate distance start stop rides, you just aren't riding hard enough for sustained periods of time to achieve any type of physiological adaptions. Being able to ride significantly faster at the same HR is a very achievable goal with solid training using a good plan.

chelvel

I feel that I don't understand what training is about. But I'm sure that I don't want solid training. In the same time I like riding and trying to do my best with a minimum effort. After riding for 1-2 hours I never return somehow exhausted and always have a feeling that I can double it. While those 1-2 hours I sometimes go to 100% HR peaks (once or two times a year). I feel better year after year and Polar HRM diagnostic every year shows better fit. (I started to doubt that it is for real and not their software trick.) But my average spead to average HR do not move. I see it moves when it is colder and I put more clothes on.

redlude97

This is you. Some rides you should be coming home and falling off the bike, that is how you get better, some rides you should feel like you hardly did any work at all. Not every ride should be that hard, but 2-3 times a week max you should be going so hard that your heart feels like its going to explode and your eyes will bleed out and you want to puke.

chelvel

It sounds to be a very unnatural activity. Isn't it? Something very close to dope.

I see two possibilities: if I'm in my peak form or I'm not. I see the later, but I'm not sure. If I'm not, there must be something simple and not too hard to do. Not to put me in my peak form, but in that direction.

And I do not understand how is it possible to produce more power with the same HR. (Averages)

fstrnu

It's possible but not if you don't do anything. You have to push the body for it to adapt. Make one or two of your weekly rides harder, like really hard. Your body will adapt and get faster and then you keep pushing it harder and it will adapt again. Do it!

Carbonfiberboy 

I used to tell riders who had trouble hanging on our paceline to "go so hard the blood starts from your eye sockets." -for as long as possible, then drop off. Next time, they'd be better. Partly fitness, partly a mental and physical skill.

chelvel

Is really hard means zone5? How long then? When will I see any results to be sure that it works?

When I first bought HRM I found that I was foolish enough to ride a lot in zone5. Result - nothing changed.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yes, there's a weird pleasure in it. Partly it is dope: endorphins are pain-reducing hormones produced by hard exercise. Makes sense, eh?

No, you're probably not at your peak form. In good form, the average cyclist can climb several thousand feet at about 2000'/hour and hold 22 mph on the flat fairly comfortably though working hard. I'm 73 and can ride at 18 mph with a HR of 118 for hours. Peak form is another matter. Pros can climb passes at an average of over 5000'/hour.

Becoming fitter is all about becoming a more efficient calorie burning machine. Your body is nothing more than a trainable chemical factory. It's just a matter of training inputs and power/endurance outputs, and how they are related. The whole point of training is to be able to go faster with the same perceived exertion, which usually follows HR pretty closely.

The natural tendency of our bodies and minds is to conserve energy, i.e. to do as little hard work as possible. That makes sense in an environment where food supply is uncertain, as it was for almost all of human history. But now that we have enough food, many of us find it fun to try to throw off that natural sloth and see what we can do when we pull out all the stops. Cycling is a kinetic sport and the faster one goes, the more fun it is.

redlude97

Have you ever ridden at zone 5 for an hour straight? Little blips into zone 5 will do very little. HR lags way behind effort. How often do you hit max HR?