himespau 

I've often wondered what makes them proprietary. Do normal spokes not fit through the hubs? Do they just not tell you the dimensions so you have to pay 10x the price if you can't figure out how to measure?

69chevy

Even if this is true, the gains from either are tiny.

Like I said, unless you ride 25mph solo, or are climbing the Col du Tourmalet, don't sweat the minute differences in wheels.

rpenmanparker 

Usually they are very wide bladed, unlike what you can commonly find from the major brands at retail. And they are often, maybe always straight pull. Just an overall PITA.

Trsnrtr

Some use internal nipples inside the rim and there are at least three different sizes of wrench that I know of. The wrench is used from the back side after the tire is removed. Also, some use spokes that have a t-head at the hub, others are straight pull instead of J-bend. Then, there are DT-Swiss that use a reverse E-6 Torx at the hub. The combinations are endless.

My wife and I are going on a trip soon and the touring company has requested that everyone bring their own spokes as they can't come close to providing spokes of all types and lengths. I had to order 3 special spokes for my Campy Shamals at $15 apiece. My wife's Giant Avail Advanced 0 uses DT-Swiss spokes with a standard nipple at the rim and the E6 Torx at the hub, special order, of course. I also had to order an E6 open ended wrench.

himespau 

Ugh, I'd heard good things about DT Swiss hubs. Are they all like that? That sounds like a major PITA. I don't know why you'd use them if you had the choice and that was the case (as someone who uses campagnolo, those Shamals are nice looking though).

Trsnrtr

Not all DT-Swiss are like that, but my wife's are.

Also, I have some 55mm carbon wheels, also made by DT-Swiss that came on my Propel and I broke a spoke 20 miles in to an eighty mile ride. These had the internal nipples and the sag wagon wasn't carrying an internal wrench. That's how i found out about proprietary internal nipples and had to order a the special wrench.

So, I now own the special wrench for internal nipples and the special wrench for E6 nipples.

chaadster

You're conflating what's personally insignificant to you with a general concept of insignificance, and therefore missing the obvious, namely that saving even a second, or eeking out another .5mph over the course of their ride, is for some riders enough to achieve a goal, set a Personal Best, place on the podium, move up the Strava leader board, set a world record, win a national title, earn cash, or just finally beat their best friend to the end of the Tuesday night ride.

That you think these things are "tiny" speaks more to the limits of your riding interests and abilities than to the benefits of aero wheels.

69chevy

Speaks to my abilities... Ok dude.

chaadster

Oh, I didn 't mean it like that! I just meant in the sense of winning national titles...but of course I don't know you, either, so maybe ai'm putting my foot in my mouth again...but it does seem unlikely a national-level racer would turn their nose up at aero advantages, but what do I know? I don't have the abilities for stuff like that either, but I do know that when I'm out working hard on the bike, trying to keep up with the fast kids, I take the Argents and not the A23s or Ksyriums, because the Argents make it easier (it seems) for me to sustain speed. Could be the tires, I suppose...

Anyway, sorry; no insult intended.

rclouviere

Thanks for the response. Where are the Argents on sale for that price?

chaadster

Direct from om AC: Wheels

rpenmanparker 

DT spokes, not hubs, if I understand correctly. Those wheels shouldn't have DT hubs, right? The spokes just have to match the requirements of the hubs and the idiosyncrasies of the wheel builder as in the Tox nipples. That isn't the fault of the hub or spoke maker.

rpenmanparker 

But his advice was sound for the vast majority of riders. The exceptions he mentioned to not needing aero adequately cover the examples you give of those who might. In spirit if not exactly word for word. And most importantly, his "personal concept of insignificance" seems a lot closer to the norm than yours does. If someone unknown to us simply asks, "Should I buy standard or aero," are we to assume the most extreme level of riding ambition or something more middle-of-the-road? Good advice for the average rider would seem to be most appropriate with a mention of the factors that would influence a different conclusion.

Sy Reene

Semi-aero and carbon... these look attractive.
November Bicycles: Race smart. - Rail 34

RIP Chainrings

I'd get a used powertap wheelset instead with the money

The price of a new mavic wheelset is well over the price of a great condition used power tap wheelset.

chaadster

His "advice" was wheels don't matter, which is simply incorrect.

So why not choose aero? Because you need a sub-1100gm wheelset? Hahhahaha! Talk about extreme examples. Dude, seriously...get a grip!

rpenmanparker 

Once again, they don't matter...for the majority of riders. Some folks are a different story.

The grip I have firmly in hand is on not judging other people's equipment preferences. I'm all too glad to share mine, but I'm not laughing at yours. I could be...but I'm not.

chaadster

If aero wheels don't matter for the majority of riders, it's because they're not paying attention and don't care, not because they don't make a difference. But we're not talking about "the majority," we're talking about the OP, a self-described good climber who want's to improve, particularly their speed on the flats.

Neither you nor anyone else in this thread has supplied a valid reason for the OP to choose standard over aero design wheels in order to meet their goals. Aero wheels are the correct choice for the OP; the only question is which aero wheels.

merlinextraligh

I'm a big guy, 200lbs, have raced criteriums, mountain bikes, cyclocross, for 30 plus years, so I consider myself as having pretty decent bike handling skills.

There are days that I don't like using a 58mm front rim when the wind's really blowing. Of course I can do it, but its not the best tool for the job on those days.


With the advent of U shaped rims, handling in cross winds has improved. Yet, I still think how a wheel handles in cross winds is a legitimate concern, particularly for significantly deep rims, and as an everyday wheel, even if you're not bike handling impaired.

rpenmanparker 

Done and done. You can go home now guys. Show's over.

chaadster

FIFY.

The real work is yet to be done, namely figuring out which aero wheels are the best choice. Several posters have brought relevant issues to light, and helpfully replied to the OP's request for wheel suggestions. I look forward to continuing the discussion in that vein.

Trsnrtr

The wheels that I speak of with the Torx E6 nipples are made by DT-Swiss for Giant. The spokes are threaded at both ends and have standard nipples at the rim and the goofy Torx nipples at the hub.

The Campy/Fulcrum rims are straight pull proprietary spokes at $15 a pop. No idea who makes them and they are fairly hard to get.

69chevy

Biggest Bang For Your Buck In Time Trial Equipment | CyclingTips

Aero wheels "don't matter" for most riders because they have the smallest return on investment.

Advertised time gains are on a solo, full power effort over 40km and the comparison is to box rims which are the worst performers of all wheels.

Most riders would bonk and be in a ditch if they attempted a 25 mile full power effort. It truly is apples and oranges.

One would think that if a person was truly seeking an all time fastest run, and wanted to buy speed, shoe covers would be their first purchase, yet no one bothers. They save more time over a 40k TT as that $700-1000 front wheel and cost $30.

In normal riding conditions (moderate effort, rolling hills, stop and go), my average speed doesn't change when I put on my Zipp 404 wheels.

In double blind studies, people ingesting placebos for weight loss, lose weight. Why? Because they believe the pills work.

After dropping over a grand on some "speed" it doesn't suprise me that people swear they are faster and get upset when I tell them they aren't.

Since the OP is considering aero wheels to make him faster on the flats, I felt it wise to inform him that they won't make a noticible difference.

69chevy

44mm tubular wheel set - Boyd Cycling

But if neither won't make anyone happy, I think these are a very good blend of light and aero, are reasonably priced and happen to be on sale.

But tubulars, although lighter, are too much trouble for most cyclists on a quest to set their new PR.

merlinextraligh

The wind tunnel data on shoe covers is pretty murky. Some shoe covers actually increase drag. Only certain brands on certain shoes actually save time.