chaadster

You clearly should concern yourself less with how others spend their money, because it's f***ing-up your ability to make sense.

69chevy

Maybe you should concern yourself less with my posts then.

If you have data showing two of your normal rides on the same route, with matching power meter data, matching wind speed, matching wind direction and can show us how much speed you gained with which wheels, I'd be happy to buy a set.

I'm not at all concerned with how people spend their money.

I'm just plainly saying that expensive wheels aren't gonna make you noticibly faster.

If that doesn't compute... ignore me.

If you can't ignore me for some reason, prove me wrong.

Trsnrtr

Relax, guys. It's a good thread and the OP has got some decent advice. Don't get it locked down by bickering over nits.

redfooj

i bought nice expensive deep dish carbon wheels on my steel roadie and it didnt seem to make me any faster (tho perhaps accelerates faster going downhill)

so then i thought, lets get the lightweight 30mm carbon wheels on the carbon roadie to make me climb faster............. it didnt

now whats a man to do to get a refund around here?

69chevy

Just drink some of the Kool-Aid.

They made you faster, you just didn't notice.

merlinextraligh

That shouldn't be hard to do. All the data suggests that a good aero wheelset like Zipp 404's, compared to a standard set of wheels, such as Mavic Open Pro's for example should be worth somewhere in the range of .1-.2mph at 20mph or so.

So I own both sets of wheels, and a power meter, so I could do it. There would be some subtle con-founders, not being a blinded study. (i.e you ride with elbows flexed a little deeper with 404's just because you feel faster.)

I'm pretty certain though I could go out and do the same flat loop with an average 200 watts, and see about a .1mph difference in speed with the Zipps. Given all the wind tunnel data that tells us that would happen, I don't see the need to do it.

So the question becomes is .1mph "noticbly faster." I think it is perceptible, but there's obviously a placebo effect.

Is it significantly faster? That's depends on what's significant to you. Just riding along by yourself, probably not, trying to win a TT, or even outsprint your buddy to city limit line, it could well be the difference.

69chevy

I appreciate an intelligent, civil response from a person with a different perspective.

I agree that the .1-.2 mph gain is probably accurate with the wheel that claims to be the world's best.

In my opinion, 1/100th of your speed is insignifigant.

redfooj

= ~1.5 football fields ahead in an hour long effort for the zipps

chaadster

Oh it computes alright...as completely stupid. It's totally impossible to control for all the variables that would impact the results. But then again, you're not much on science, precision, and the like, so why should that stop us?

No, you should save your money for tuition.

69chevy

You are hilarious.

I'm a senior engineering instructor at a nuclear power plant.

I have paid my tuition.

I have no need to save money, I make a lot of it.

Since I'm not much on science, precision or the like, you should be afraid. Very afraid.

I train the folks who calculate out how to best load the fuel into the reactor core.

chaadster

fify

69chevy

Therefore you just admitted there is no way of knowing your wheels made you faster.

Science is a bi#$h, huh?

himespau 

This is something I go back and forth on. My road bike currently only has a single wheelset. It's a wheelset that I love (9-speed Record Hubs laced with Sapim lasers to Kinlin XC279 rims). It rolls well and is nice and cushy with the wide rims (even with 23 mm tires), but I think I calculated one time that it weighs in excess of 2 kg (or damn close).

The problem with only having one wheelset is that I need to clean/repack/readjust the hubs, so I'm unable to ride until I get the time to do that, so I'm thinking about getting a second wheelset. I'm tempted by lightweight, tempted by aero, but then I remember the current bike+rider weight is in the 210-215 lb range and knocking off even a pound or two (even a rotational pound) isn't really going to do much for me; I just need more saddle time. So I go back to saving up for powertap hubs to build into a nice wheelset that would become my primary wheels, but that's just not as fun as buying something now, especially when one could get pacenti sl23 rims on clearance from bikehubstore and lace them up to their moderately low weight hubs with cx-rays for a >1500g 24/28 wheelset for a bit over $400.

chaadster

Stick to engineering, Homer, not logic.

69chevy

Logic?

Let me recap yours.

Aero wheels are very important because they will absolutely give you an advantage that can't be measured.

69chevy is stupid because he says the difference can't be measured.

You are right on all accounts.

I'm dumb, you are smart.

OP, do what the chaadster says. He is the expert here.

rclouviere

I'm the OP. Lots of responses and recommendations. The wheels I'm looking at are the Mavic Ksyrium 125 edition (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...%20mavic%20125).


There's also a review on youtube named "Western Bikeworks Features: Mavic Ksyrium 125 Clincher Wheel System.

I'm also now looking at the AC Argent Aero wheel. The only drawback seems to be the weight.

69chevy

I use the "spare" reason to rotate through different used wheels.

This racing season, I was able to buy, sell and trade a few sets (my son races) to get a good feel for what I like and didn't lose any cash in the process.

I've ridden the Pacenti SL23. It is a very nice rim.

bikebreak

a new suggestion:
If you have lots of hills or your average speed is under 17mph go for lightweight over aero. less advantage to aero wheels at lower speeds.

av speed over 17 under 20 get zipp 303 (or equivalent)

av speed over 20 get zipp 404

rclouviere

Thanks for the help. Please see my last thread. The wheels I'm looking at are the Ksyrium 125 edition. Thoughts on these?

I like the AC wheels, but they appear to be about 200 grams heavier? I want to be faster on the flats, but don't want to lose too much on climbing. Is this impossible?

chaadster

Uh, the listed difference between the K125s and Argents is 2gm! Is two grams the "drawback" you're talking about?

Marcus_Ti

Well the Mavics...in addition to being expensive for what you get (when new retail barring clearance), and hard to source expensive parts for (which since these are an old model no one probably has parts for)....also have the bonus feature of the "Exalith" coating, which in English is a fancy marketing term for a powdercoat paint that will wear off and look like crap in approximately 2-6 weeks like all other painted rim-brake rims (H+Son Archetype, HED Belgium)

The AC...meh. Sure they're light weight, but don't care for their hubs.

What do you weigh? The ACs have a weight limit on them, as well as being low spoke count.

rclouviere

I weigh 160.

rclouviere

I think I was looking at the Argent 40 Carbons? Are you talking about the Argent Road Tubeless for $1,090. They aren't aero, right?

chaadster

Regarding Exalith, it is not paint, and considerably more durable, though not impervious to scratching. Picking up sand on the pads (which are special to Exalith, btw) can scratch the finish. They're probably best as fair-weather wheels, though the improved braking is tempting to want in the rain.

Black brake tracks, like the Archetype and FLO (anodized, not painted), seem stupid to me, and do look crappy as they wear. I think Belgiums are machined and silver, though.

My opinion on the Argent is that they are bad-assed. The hubs are excellent in my experience with the wheels, the front being exceptional light and very rigid with both the wide set, split-sleeve mounted bearing placement and widely spaced flanges. The rear offers a durable, cam driven pawl mech that always engages all 6 pawls for good stress distribution, and the high/low flange design and spacing allows for equal spoke tension on both drive and non-drive side. The steel free hub faces on the aluminum body add great protection from cassette bite while keeping weight low. If I have a beef, it's that the rear requires a wrench to disassemble, but I can deal with that.

The brilliance of the Argents is in the total package, though. The hubs are drilled to accept wide aero spokes, which increase stiffness, and the rim is a very wide-- probably widest inner/outer ratio in the biz-- tubeless specific design. The spoke nipples have a threaded extension beyond the head, on the inside of the rim, removing tension stress from the body of the nipple, the most common failure point.

There's just a bunch of small stuff that adds up to a great performing (in my experience) wheel set that delivers on the wider front, with tubeless, some aero (30mm depth F&R) and very low weight.

chaadster

I was talking Argent, sorry. They are a 30mm tall U-shape, so yes, aero, if not the fastest toroid shape (where widest part of rim is fairing, not brake track).

I like the Argents for my weight; wide, alu brake track...good stuff for big guys who ride in the wet! At your weight, I'd probably trade off width for depth, though, and worry less about carbon braking issues.