Zaphod Beeblebrox 

I know the Japanese have been making bikes a long time. I'm familiar with the City Bikes and Mama Chari bikes and such, but I'm not familiar with any lightweight road bikes prior to the 1970's.

Did they exist? Who Made them? How do they compare to European lightweights of the same age?

khatfull

I'm anxious for responses here, this question has always bugged me too.

-holiday76

https://proteanpaper.com/scart_pictu...00000000003016

https://proteanpaper.com/scart_resul...s=&srcateg=233

Chris W.

Toei has been making custom frame sets (French Rando) for a very long time. I would consider a Toei to be a grail bike.

Cheers,
Chris

rothenfield1

Oooh! A JP bike history thread. I'm all ears...ur...eyes. I've been sparking some controversy over the Miyata history on another forum by posting this.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyata It goes back much farther then I had thought, and I'm not buying some of it.

I'm curious, when you ask about "lightweights", are you asking when tubing manufacturers started using lighter alloys, or when they started carving excess metal out of the interior walls of the tubing?

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

I just mean the style really, not what it weighs on a scale. I mean "lightweights" in the way its used to differentiate an English racer from a Raleigh DL-1.

I really don't want to get hung up on semantics. I just wanna hear about bikes that arent the full-chaincase style city bikes I see.
As Chris said, Toei is exactly along the lines of what I'm talking about

BillP

The Japanese Wikipedia has some insight into the French inspiration for Toei etc: https://tinyurl.com/3ndmx3a

Bill P

rhm

Take a look at the early Japanese derailleurs on the Disraeli Gears site. I'm sure they would have been happy to export them thangs, but I've never seen any one of them, so presumably there was a domestic market, for which Japanese copies of 50's Huret or Simplex gear was a good affordable option. Cool stuff.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

Here we go. 1959 Toei BlueBird (tourer). https://www.flickr.com/photos/23666168@N04/3554398534/

katezila

Wow. That front rack is amazing.

khatfull

I have one of these: https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...erailleur.html

...in excellent condition at the house. Picked it up at a co-op just because it was cool. If you have interest I'll shoot you a few pics.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

That's a cool Part man. I can't help but take umbrage at the editorial on Disraeli Gears:

ummm..... Maybe Huret stole it from DNB. Is it so hard to conceive?

khatfull

Yeah...

I'll shoot some pics. Oddly, I got a really nice Svelto at the same time, I can shoot them together.

Anyone need a really nice Svelto with smooth pulleys?

khatfull

Ah, exactly like this at Velobase:



It's an interesting bit to sit in a drawer...maybe one day a bike will show up to put it on.

jeepr

I have a Kuwahara road bike. I have no idea what year it is, but it's a real nice ride. I would guess mid-70s?

I picked it up as a stripped frame with fork and headset and built it up as a beater. I would guess it's a touring frame because of the relaxed geometry and spot for a couple spare spokes on the chainstay.

khatfull

Here you go ZB, the DNB next to a Svelto (which isn't yet cleaned ). There's a slight similarity ya think?

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

cool stuff man

grifone37

[QUOTE=khatfull;12684276]Here you go ZB, the DNB next to a Svelto (which isn't yet cleaned ). There's a slight similarity ya think?

I'm assuming the implication is that one der is a copy of the other? If so, I would like to pose this question. If two components (rear derailleurs in this case) have no parts in common, no pieces that can be swapped from one derailleur to the other, how can one be the clone of the other?

At a passing glance, the two derailleurs shown have some similarities, but look closely and it is clear that you could never rebuild one using the parts from the other (except for the jockey wheels which are universally interchangeable). Not even the springs could be swapped.

I suppose it comes down to patent law, and patent attorneys, but to my eye the only similarity between the two derailleurs (i.e. mechanical designs) is that that both are capable of changing gears (i.e. basic task). I'm no patent attorney (actually, a botanist) but I'm pretty sure you can patent a design, but not a task. If that were the case, there would only be one wheel available for all cars, trucks, wheelbarrows, trains, airplanes, bicycles and Radio Flyer wagons.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

i don't think the point is whether the parts are interchangeable. Its hard to deny that they look strikingly similar. The Japanese one looks klunkier.

I'd love to hear a comparison ride report between the two.

Dawes-man

There are quite a few Japanese makers that I had never heard of before coming to Japan. This is a list I have compiled with the help of Mr Sugiyama, the guy who made my Katakura Silk. They were all names he remembers from his time as a Keirin rider in the 1960s.

Toei
Ravanello (maybe)
Norton
National (known as Panasonic in the US, I think)
Koufuu
Everest
Nichibei Fuji
Sanno Sports (Eminenza)

There are many others from the 1970s and 1980s that you see here but that people outside Japan are unlikely to ever come across, like:

Amanda
Hirose
Level
Vivalo
Futaba
Romani
Nagasawa
Higashikawa
Quark

And then there were a lot of small makers in the late 70s, early 80s, examples you might just see one of in 20 years. This is just such one, called a Prosit. A friend bought it from a friend, a heavy smoker who'd had it hanging up on the wall of his office since he bought it in 1982. It had a mixture of Camapgnolo Super Record and Nuovo Record, stained nicotine-yellow. The RD was a 1st generation Super Record with the black knuckles and a Nuovo Super Record seat post, a kind I'd never seen before.

It's obviously a well put together frame, as you can see from the photos below. The frame and forks are Ishiwata 019. As for the makes in the above list, I have photos of most of them if anyone would like me to post them here...

[IMG]
IMG_6196 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]
IMG_6197 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]
IMG_6198 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]
IMG_6201 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]
IMG_6202 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

ScottRyder 

Yes please!

Scott

khatfull

+1000, unquestionably!

Dawes-man

Okay, but you made me do it

It might take me a while to find photos of the bikes in the list of 1960s machines but I have photos of all the ones in the 2nd list. I'll start with a few of them.

Hirose

[IMG]
IMG_0343 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]
IMG_0345 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

Futaba

[IMG]
IMG_0322 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]
IMG_0337 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

Amanda

[IMG]
IMG_0334 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]
IMG_0330 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

Romani

[IMG]
IMG_0324 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

Dawes-man

I have a couple of poor photos of an early Norton frame hanging up in a shop:

[IMG]
IMG_3364 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]


IMG_3397 by Dawes-man, on Flickr

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

I think i'm in love with Amanda. Very cool.

this is exactly what I was hoping to see in this thread. Thanks a million Dawes-Man!