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new lugged steel track frames?

Old 01-12-10, 07:40 PM
  #26  
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I was checking out the Bob Jackson Vigorelli. The website currently says that it is made of Reynolds 631, but the picture shows a 853 badge. What years was the Vigorelli made with 853?
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Old 01-12-10, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by NinetiesKid View Post
I was checking out the Bob Jackson Vigorelli. The website currently says that it is made of Reynolds 631, but the picture shows a 853 badge. What years was the Vigorelli made with 853?
Reynolds 631 is just non-heat treated 853. Heat treatment is more important for tig welded joints, but for brazed lugged joints it really doesn't matter. However, 853 tubing is thinner because it is stronger and hence it is lighter than 631, so a 631 frame will be heavier.

The Vigorelli is available with both tubesets. The 853 costs more than the 631.

>>>>> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-PRICE-LIST.htm

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Old 01-12-10, 08:10 PM
  #28  
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http://www.stanridgespeed.com/track.htm
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Old 01-12-10, 08:40 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
Never liked the finish on Masis. Became a Masi dealer once back in the 70's .. received 10 bikes and sent them all back. Paint was crap! Maybe they've gotten better since then ... would HOPE so!
Ridiculous. Even more so coming from someone that was even alive in the 70's.
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Old 01-13-10, 06:18 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Ridiculous. Even more so coming from someone that was even alive in the 70's.
Ridiculous? How so? The year was 1978 and I was managing a shop called Campy's bike shop in Canoga Park, Ca., (the owners name was Campanelli, and his dad started the shop in the late 40's so it pre-dated Campagnolo's entry into the US.) We decided to handle Masis on account of their previous reputation, so we ordered the bikes. Every single one of them we opened, (which was about half of the order), had flaws in the paint. There was paint on the chrome, paint flaking, bubbles in the paint, etc. On one bike there was even some flaking of the chrome.

It was horrible workmanship and quite frankly, we were blown away by it. For a manufacturer with the reputation Masi had to put out a product like that was unbelievable. We sent the whole order back.

Several of our customers knew we were going to be handling Masi and were waiting to see them. When we told them we sent them back and why, we started hearing reports of the same issues with other late 70's Masis. Maybe it was just limited to a few years in that period where they had a problem with their finishing processes or personnel, but they HAD a problem.

As for "being alive" in the 70's, I got back from Vietnam and out of the Army in February of 1971, and started in the bike business in 1972. By `74, I was managing the best shop in the Tampa Bay area, (home), then I moved out to LA where my sister lived. I managed Campy's from 77 to 79, and during that time I was the team mechanic for Team Arco, North Hollywood Wheelmen, (the largest racing team in the US at the time), on the 1978 Red Zinger Classic, (the largest stage race in the US at the time). Over the years, I've wrenched, sold, managed and owned bikes shops, been a USCF official, raced and coached.

The point of all this is that I knew what a quality bike was back in the 70's, and again, the Masis we saw were crap. So the only thing "ridiculous" is your statement when you don't even know who you're talking to.
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Old 01-13-10, 06:30 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
Never liked the finish on Masis. Became a Masi dealer once back in the 70's .. received 10 bikes and sent them all back. Paint was crap! Maybe they've gotten better since then ... would HOPE so!
Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
Maybe it was just limited to a few years in that period where they had a problem with their finishing processes or personnel, but they HAD a problem.
Maybe? Or do you really think they're still doing business exactly the same way, 20+ years later?
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Old 01-13-10, 07:27 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Maybe? Or do you really think they're still doing business exactly the same way, 20+ years later?
20+ years later there is no Masi. It's just a name now, like so many others. The name was bought by Haro a while back, and has zero connection to the original, just like so many other brands. While I admit to not having seen a Masi since back when Clinton was faithful, if they're like so many other lines that are just names now, they are all being manufactured in the same couple of factories in Taiwan and the finish on MOST of them is only average, at best.

If you REALLY want a REAL Masi, go here:
http://www.milano3v.com/
Be sure and read the "History" page. You might find it enlightening.
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Old 01-13-10, 08:39 AM
  #33  
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I love this thread
I like the emotion that comes with lugged frames
Working on Kilo TT with lugs now
Also with 5 levels of complete road bikes with lugs [105, rival, ultegra, red, da]

Hard part is to figure out what options to add

with DB 4130 as base
add $50 for HT paint with panel
add $150 for chrome lugs
add $200 for Reynolds 725
add $400 for Reynolds 853 or Columbus SL

but which ever way it goes; as it is fun
I am doing it

NOW I am thinking trim
I like the idea of Silver wheels with all silver seat post, stem, bars, etc
Or maybe use Silver trim on Shimano bikes and Black on Sram bikes
and silver on track versions

As always, I would love input
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Old 01-13-10, 09:03 AM
  #34  
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What sort of lugs are you going to be using on the kilo? any idea what colors, and when it will be here?
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Old 01-13-10, 09:25 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
We decided to handle Masis on account of their previous reputation, so we ordered the bikes. Every single one of them we opened, (which was about half of the order), had flaws in the paint. There was paint on the chrome, paint flaking, bubbles in the paint, etc. On one bike there was even some flaking of the chrome.

It was horrible workmanship and quite frankly, we were blown away by it. For a manufacturer with the reputation Masi had to put out a product like that was unbelievable. We sent the whole order back.
Were these Italian Masis or California Masis?
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Old 01-13-10, 05:58 PM
  #36  
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Thanks TejanoTrackie, I never knew that. Ever since I rode an 853 road frame I've been fascinated with them.
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Old 01-13-10, 06:14 PM
  #37  
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a couple more lugged track frames for you:

Colossi - colossicycles.com
Viking - vikingcycles.com
fuji obey frameset - check ebay, they are $350
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Old 01-13-10, 06:58 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by bikesdirect_com View Post
I love this thread
I like the emotion that comes with lugged frames
Working on Kilo TT with lugs now
Also with 5 levels of complete road bikes with lugs [105, rival, ultegra, red, da]

Hard part is to figure out what options to add

with DB 4130 as base
add $50 for HT paint with panel
add $150 for chrome lugs
add $200 for Reynolds 725
add $400 for Reynolds 853 or Columbus SL

but which ever way it goes; as it is fun
I am doing it

NOW I am thinking trim
I like the idea of Silver wheels with all silver seat post, stem, bars, etc
Or maybe use Silver trim on Shimano bikes and Black on Sram bikes
and silver on track versions

As always, I would love input
do the tubing upgrades. everyone and their grandma is doing chromed bits now, but chromed lugs might still be nice. but I would go for the tubing upgrade in a heartbeat.
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Old 01-13-10, 07:11 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Were these Italian Masis or California Masis?
Given the date, I'd have to say they were Californis Masis. And I have no idea when Faliero Masi quit directly overseeing the Cal stuff and returned to Italy, but I'd like to think it was prior to that.
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Old 01-13-10, 08:42 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
20+ years later there is no Masi. It's just a name now, like so many others. The name was bought by Haro a while back, and has zero connection to the original, just like so many other brands. While I admit to not having seen a Masi since back when Clinton was faithful, if they're like so many other lines that are just names now, they are all being manufactured in the same couple of factories in Taiwan and the finish on MOST of them is only average, at best.

If you REALLY want a REAL Masi, go here:
http://www.milano3v.com/
Be sure and read the "History" page. You might find it enlightening.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ight=real+masi
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Old 01-16-10, 09:08 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by bikesdirect_com View Post
I love this thread
I like the emotion that comes with lugged frames
Working on Kilo TT with lugs now
Also with 5 levels of complete road bikes with lugs [105, rival, ultegra, red, da]

Hard part is to figure out what options to add

with DB 4130 as base
add $50 for HT paint with panel
add $150 for chrome lugs
add $200 for Reynolds 725
add $400 for Reynolds 853 or Columbus SL

but which ever way it goes; as it is fun
I am doing it

NOW I am thinking trim
I like the idea of Silver wheels with all silver seat post, stem, bars, etc
Or maybe use Silver trim on Shimano bikes and Black on Sram bikes
and silver on track versions

As always, I would love input
Go for the 853 tubing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-16-10, 10:05 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by bikesdirect_com View Post
I love this thread
I like the emotion that comes with lugged frames
Working on Kilo TT with lugs now
Also with 5 levels of complete road bikes with lugs [105, rival, ultegra, red, da]

Hard part is to figure out what options to add

with DB 4130 as base
add $50 for HT paint with panel
add $150 for chrome lugs
add $200 for Reynolds 725
add $400 for Reynolds 853 or Columbus SL

but which ever way it goes; as it is fun
I am doing it

NOW I am thinking trim
I like the idea of Silver wheels with all silver seat post, stem, bars, etc
Or maybe use Silver trim on Shimano bikes and Black on Sram bikes
and silver on track versions

As always, I would love input
Go with a silver aero seatpost, and drillium on the chainring fluted cranks. Or something along the lines of aero mighty cranks to super mighty competition chainring Would be sick. keep it old school . and if you go with threaded a same with stem. Lol just build my ideal bike for me

Last edited by bryyando; 01-16-10 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 02-01-10, 06:11 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by bikesdirect_com View Post
I love this thread
I like the emotion that comes with lugged frames
Working on Kilo TT with lugs now
Also with 5 levels of complete road bikes with lugs [105, rival, ultegra, red, da]

Hard part is to figure out what options to add

with DB 4130 as base
add $50 for HT paint with panel
add $150 for chrome lugs
add $200 for Reynolds 725
add $400 for Reynolds 853 or Columbus SL

but which ever way it goes; as it is fun
I am doing it

NOW I am thinking trim
I like the idea of Silver wheels with all silver seat post, stem, bars, etc
Or maybe use Silver trim on Shimano bikes and Black on Sram bikes
and silver on track versions

As always, I would love input
lugged frames on bikesdirect, AWESOME IDEA!!! As far as options go $200 for 725 sounds soooo much more appealing than double that for 853. As for chrome lugs, no thx not worth the cash to me. painted quality lugs would be great. also maybe a black pinstripe to go with that silver frame?? *drool* Keep making as many new cool bikes as you can!
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Old 02-01-10, 06:39 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
Ridiculous? How so? The year was 1978 and I was managing a shop called Campy's bike shop in Canoga Park, Ca., (the owners name was Campanelli, and his dad started the shop in the late 40's so it pre-dated Campagnolo's entry into the US.) We decided to handle Masis on account of their previous reputation, so we ordered the bikes. Every single one of them we opened, (which was about half of the order), had flaws in the paint. There was paint on the chrome, paint flaking, bubbles in the paint, etc. On one bike there was even some flaking of the chrome.

It was horrible workmanship and quite frankly, we were blown away by it. For a manufacturer with the reputation Masi had to put out a product like that was unbelievable. We sent the whole order back.

Several of our customers knew we were going to be handling Masi and were waiting to see them. When we told them we sent them back and why, we started hearing reports of the same issues with other late 70's Masis. Maybe it was just limited to a few years in that period where they had a problem with their finishing processes or personnel, but they HAD a problem.

As for "being alive" in the 70's, I got back from Vietnam and out of the Army in February of 1971, and started in the bike business in 1972. By `74, I was managing the best shop in the Tampa Bay area, (home), then I moved out to LA where my sister lived. I managed Campy's from 77 to 79, and during that time I was the team mechanic for Team Arco, North Hollywood Wheelmen, (the largest racing team in the US at the time), on the 1978 Red Zinger Classic, (the largest stage race in the US at the time). Over the years, I've wrenched, sold, managed and owned bikes shops, been a USCF official, raced and coached.

The point of all this is that I knew what a quality bike was back in the 70's, and again, the Masis we saw were crap. So the only thing "ridiculous" is your statement when you don't even know who you're talking to.

Even today, Torelli will tell you their Italian paint job isn't as good as the U.S. one.

I'm guessing your store got the Italian Masis, not the California made ones.

With your history, you should check out the Classic and Vintage forum.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:24 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by bbattle View Post
I'm guessing your store got the Italian Masis, not the California made ones.

With your history, you should check out the Classic and Vintage forum.
Can't know for sure. In those days, there was no free-flowing internet scuttlebutt, and industry news was as closely guarded as if it was under the watchful eye of "HomeBrand Security".

As for the the C&V forum, well, there's only so much time in the day. I participate in the tandem forum plus a separate tandem mailing list, the southeast regional forum, and now here. That's enough.

Plus, being in the bike business for as long as I was, I long ago quit having emotional attachements to my bikes. To me, they are just the hardware of the sport, and quite frankly, today's hardware works better. I currently don't own a bike that's over 5 years old.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:32 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by stryper View Post
And the still haven't relised a headset, specers, and stem should all be the same color
nonsense
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Old 02-01-10, 09:40 AM
  #47  
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Booo for threadless forks anyway.
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Old 02-01-10, 10:31 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Onegun View Post
Plus, being in the bike business for as long as I was, I long ago quit having emotional attachements to my bikes. To me, they are just the hardware of the sport, and quite frankly, today's hardware works better. I currently don't own a bike that's over 5 years old.

Yes, modern equipment works better, however, the old stuff has a lot more personality and I'm glad that I've managed to keep most of my vintage frames and bikes. There's an undeniable beauty in a lugged steel frame that is lacking in modern tig welded frames. Were my modern aluminum/carbon wonderbike to get stolen, I'd be pissed but the loss would only be monetary, whereas if that were that to happen to my Ron Cooper, Nobilette or Sparrow it would be an unrecoverable emotional loss.
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Old 02-01-10, 11:23 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
Yes, modern equipment works better, however, the old stuff has a lot more personality and I'm glad that I've managed to keep most of my vintage frames and bikes.
Oh, I understand, and there's a lot more people who would agree with you than me! Stangely enough though, of all the rides I've owned over these 38 years, (which includes a host of Italian, English, American, Swiss, French and Japanese frames), if I could have any of them back, I'd choose my 1980 Fuji Pro. Nothing fancy, but a stiff, upright, fast crit bike.
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BICYCLE - [[I]bahy-si-kuhl] - Noun :> A medical device used to correct the common geriatric condition of OFS, (Old, Fat & Slow), in a manner that does not induce brain-decaying boredom like walking or running.

2005 Trek T2000 tandem, Giant TCR, Eddie Merckx Majestic Ti, Fuji Team, Giant Revel 29er, Windsor Clockwork (Orange) fixie, and a BikTrix Juggernaut Ultra 1000 fat tire eBike
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Old 02-01-10, 08:44 PM
  #50  
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i'd be mad interested in a lugged kilo tt... just as long as you make sure the seat stays are classic looking brazzed on... and not that new fastback seat stay style goin on..
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