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Riding "Measurement Free"

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Riding "Measurement Free"

Old 06-26-19, 07:15 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
You keep moving the goal posts here. It was sub 5 mins and now it has gone to having a better sprint!
No one ever said he was a sprinter.
It wasn't anything. It was not defined by anyone other than someone said time. Others said Wiggins was faster than my kid when I presented facts about his track race and I posted two TT riders video who do not use measurement devices.
On a PM would any junior turn out Wiggins 5 min power? No. In a 5 min race would Wiggins always win? It depends.
Is it a crit?
Is it a TT?
Mano - Mano or a team?
What is the road like.
I'm not necessarily betting Wiggins would beat every junior in the world depending on that 5 min. Rather, I think he wouldn't.
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Old 06-26-19, 08:15 AM
  #102  
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Your describing environmental, situational and physical variables that have no bearing on whether someone uses a PM or rides measurement free.
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Old 06-26-19, 09:17 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I understand the physiology (and so how you would train) may be different for different durations, but conceptually what is the difference between increasing power and increasing endurance?
Power comes from muscles being conditioned

Endurance comes from conditioning the body to fuel the muscles longer
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Old 06-26-19, 09:28 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by guachi View Post
Wiggins (not Wiggans) is 39 and retired. So perhaps you could find 6 U23 riders that could ALL beat him in a 5 min race. But probably not. And if these kids are so hot why aren't they lighting things up in Team Pursuit? Where are they? The US has (checks wikipedia) medaled in Team Pursuit once - a silver in 1984. Get on it. Pick these 6 juniors and win a medal!
This argument is a bit apples and oranges.

The fastest marathon in human history had average mile splits of 4:41.

Are there HS kids who could beat the record holder in shorter distances? A mile?

Absolutely.

Are there ultra endurance runners who could beat him after 7 straight days of running a marathon?

Absolutely.
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Old 06-26-19, 12:51 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by guachi View Post
Wiggins (not Wiggans) is 39 and retired. So perhaps you could find 6 U23 riders that could ALL beat him in a 5 min race. But probably not. And if these kids are so hot why aren't they lighting things up in Team Pursuit? Where are they? The US has (checks wikipedia) medaled in Team Pursuit once - a silver in 1984. Get on it. Pick these 6 juniors and win a medal!
I liked this post but it is so good that I had to repost it. Absolutely, let’s trot out the 4 junior men for team pursuit that could medal in the upcoming olympics.

I train with juniors all the time at the track and they are fast and motivated. Generally, I am matched with my gang but occasionally, I am with a junior. One thing I have noticed is that besides being fast, they can drop an anchor. This is fixed gear no brakes and for whatever reason, they let up or to the other extreme, go too hard and mess up the drill.

@RChung I really liked your posts as well. Correct on the hour record.

I have power on all my bikes including track. I have 11 years of power data and workouts. I find the data set very useful in training going forward plus have instantaneous data on the bike.

However, the beauty of cycling is that one does not need any digital information to have a great time on the bike.
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Old 06-26-19, 01:25 PM
  #106  
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Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

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Old 06-26-19, 02:33 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Can you comment on the two videos, Cam and Taylor?
Ok, but I've avoided doing so out of politeness. I find them irrelevant to recreational cyclists and even to people racing at anything but the highest levels. People who race at the highest levels (in any sport) are genetically gifted people who can wipe the floor with any of us even without training at all. As you keep reminding us, their goal isn't maximizing their potential, it's just going faster than the other guys.
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Old 06-26-19, 02:37 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I think you know I shopped my kid rowing and had a great time listening to the Princeton coach with his team that year, that won Nationals. They had the stuff. It was all about feel of the oar, boat swagger. They didn't use PM oars, or even the results from the machines.
Not sure when you spoke with Princeton, but they're sure using power meters now. https://paw.princeton.edu/article/data-based-coaching
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Old 06-26-19, 03:02 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Ok, but I've avoided doing so out of politeness. I find them irrelevant to recreational cyclists and even to people racing at anything but the highest levels. People who race at the highest levels (in any sport) are genetically gifted people who can wipe the floor with any of us even without training at all. As you keep reminding us, their goal isn't maximizing their potential, it's just going faster than the other guys.
That was not impolite. I agree it has little to do with the BF posters.
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Old 06-26-19, 03:18 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Not sure when you spoke with Princeton, but they're sure using power meters now. https://paw.princeton.edu/article/data-based-coaching
Hughes has the heavyweights. Crotty has the lightweights. He's also a good cyclist.


I believe they had the power oars then. They certainly had them on the ERG machines. There was discussion about lactic acid build up.

@:40 he is talking about boat swagger and demeanor and feel. He did win that year.

https://vimeo.com/142755463
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Old 06-26-19, 03:26 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
That was not impolite. I agree it has little to do with the BF posters.
Maybe my innate ahole tendencies are getting better as I age.
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Old 06-26-19, 03:32 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Maybe my innate ahole tendencies are getting better as I age.
I was wondering about this thread.

1 OP - I like riding with just my watch, but I have all the other stuff.
2 me too, or I just added one
3 I asked at the Giro most said they don't
4 You got to have numbers
5 No you don't
6 Yes you do
7 No, here are two
8 These guys did and they are faster than your kid
9 My dad can beat up your dad...
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Old 06-27-19, 12:30 PM
  #113  
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I'm not fast. I'm not riding for max distance. Call me a weekend rider if you must. 25 years ago, my Cateye was there for speed and distance. I thought the distance was the improtant measure, yeah, speed was fun when beating my friends.

I currently use my Wahoo Blue speed and cadence sensros, and a Wahoo Tickr HRM with the Wahoo app on my phone. I watch the HRM number more than anything else. Having made my cardilogist happy with losing a LOT of weight this year, it has been the number to follow, track... I don't ALWAYS post to Strava, but appreciate it's estimation of power.

Perceived effort can be quantified with HR and cadence vs speed. Or any variation of the three. But I'm not here to do the math. I've been happy to just keep my heart rate in the safe zones my cardiologist mandated and see my speed and cadence increase as I've lost weight, and still kept my heart rate in her "boundaries". I'm quite pleased, I no long have those boundaries, so I can push a bit harder than before. I am 56, down 120 pounds... I have knee issues, so no more grinding up hills, but I'm not a fast twitch muscle guy either, which was why I never was into spinning...
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Old 06-27-19, 12:48 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by zjrog View Post
SNIP
I am 56, down 120 pounds...
SNIP
A major congratulations to you on obviously making a huge change in your over-all health trajectory.

dave
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Old 06-27-19, 02:38 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
A major congratulations to you on obviously making a huge change in your over-all health trajectory.

dave
Thanks Brother! I had the crap scared out of me last year, and finally jumped off the fence to do something about it...
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Old 06-27-19, 04:32 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by 69chevy View Post
This argument is a bit apples and oranges.

The fastest marathon in human history had average mile splits of 4:41.

Are there HS kids who could beat the record holder in shorter distances? A mile?

Absolutely.

Are there ultra endurance runners who could beat him after 7 straight days of running a marathon?

Absolutely.
It isn't apples to oranges. Team Pursuit is something Wiggins actually competed in at the Olympics. In 2016. And he won gold. In World Record time. It's a four minute bike race and he was literally on the fastest four-man team in the event. Ever.
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Old 06-29-19, 07:40 PM
  #117  
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As @Seattle Forest pointed out this is far from the typical BF poster. But as someone brought up pros, here are what the pros say.
A lot like to watch. Of course the number gives quantifiable objectives of what was done (was). For us, winning mattered more than any number.

Of course this was just a few.
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Old 06-29-19, 08:03 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
As @Seattle Forest pointed out this is far from the typical BF poster. But as someone brought up pros, here are what the pros say.
A lot like to watch. Of course the number gives quantifiable objectives of what was done (was). For us, winning mattered more than any number.

Of course this was just a few. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7PUvCU3ssY
What specific numbers are you referring to with 'the number gives quantifiable objectives of what WAS done." Some numbers give history (kjoules, average speed, distance, etc). And some #'s give what you are doing RIGHT NOW (speed, power - at least the short term averages typically displayed, gradient, etc.)

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Old 06-29-19, 11:16 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
What specific numbers are you referring to with 'the number gives quantifiable objectives of what WAS done." Some numbers give history (kjoules, average speed, distance, etc). And some #'s give what you are doing RIGHT NOW (speed, power - at least the short term averages typically displayed, gradient, etc.)


dave

Sure. You have them. They all tell you the past - even right now. Riding to numbers means you adjust your effort based on the numbers, vs perceived effort.

I've seen a bunch of riders fall apart at altitude as they didn't know HR or power to hold. I've seen them tired, recovering from sickness, and there are too many variables to tell someone to ride to a set time or number without many repetitions on the same conditions.


Look at USA Pro ITT just Thursday. We have a Worlds Podium U23 kid (who did ride with power last I knew) with jet lag, coming off a WT and rides pro ITT. What is he supposed to ride to? 2nd place was also not riding to numbers. He said got a bit too excited.

1st place may have been. But at over a min down on 2nd lap, pulled out over a min. That would be a weird plan.


Anyway I agree with SF that comparing to pros or racers is silly, and particularly so when what they do is so different than a BF poster.

USA junior racers are much closer than WT racers, or TTT track racers to actual BF posters.


Racing is about winning, power and going fast are tools to do that, but it is different. Someone who wins may not be going as fast as they can, because they don't have to.

It is a bad comparison, and worse when defined by ARE FASTER. Are when? Faster at what? What matters is are you faster at what you do. You indicated yes. That does not surprise me.


The idea you posted in you OP that maybe you might be going faster is not far fetched IMO at all.

If you like measurements, ride with them. They are objective. But much more so after the fact and often for others than the riders.
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Old 06-30-19, 10:36 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
...All three of those guys are faster than your kid.
As you baited me I thought I'd respond with some data. Winning and faster (speed) are different. Elite sprinters are more than just powerful, they have to see the path to win, take the risk etc. - and win. That is different than power and different than speed.

I am responding you your challenge that somehow the training we have been applying is less fast than your three. As I said - I'm not so sure, but I did find some data using accurate PM devices.


Measured, power tap at the hub. We have several power taps, I have no reason not to trust this. At the time he did not want it shared with USAC, and we forgot about it.

This may be the first time shared as I got so much grief sharing data from 2 years earlier.


This was the last year he was training in 2016 before college. This is a 140 lb junior.



This was 2 years before with a Sagan teammate, GT racer, multi time elite NC, junior NC, future collegiate NC, U23 ITT and Road NC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us-fOprYEXA&feature=youtu.be


This was this month (5 years later) CO State Pro crit championship. .

Training now is 3 hours / week on the bike and lottsa marching and similar gym. The text in the video is not mine.

This was a 40mph finish sitting up. How fast can he go? I don't know, he rides measurement free.

https://studio.youtube.com/video/s_yqrNq2xG0/edit

Last edited by Doge; 07-01-19 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 07-07-19, 08:11 AM
  #121  
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FWIW, I 'violated' my own rule and turned on my Garmin 800 on a ride yesterday. No big surprises, the world didn't stop turning, but I probably will not be doing that on a regular basis. Mostly I was just curious.

dave
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