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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 06-12-19, 08:58 AM
  #13551  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I set FTP based upon recorded data and feel versus testing.
I used to do an abbreviated test, especially when just starting out again from nothing, to get a baseline and then do what you're saying.

I don't know that there's much benefit to testing frequently or at all when you have gobs of data and tons of examples of intervals either working or not working and how they felt. It also takes a heavy toll mentally and physically to do it right, and obviously especially if you're doing an actual 60 minute test (because you're insane).
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Old 06-12-19, 09:05 AM
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Group ride last night, decently spicy.

There is a balance of work and frugality I value in riders in groups. I'm talking about knowing when to take your lumps and when not. Skinny? Get that hill, then wait up. Diesel engine? Pull it hard on the flat/rollers. Some on the group "get it".

We've got some drop/regroup sections where it's uphill or spots you can do whatever. You're supposed to stop at the end, and make sure someone didn't die along the way.

Then you get a couple sassy heroes blowing the stop after they catch up and leaving the group.......the group catches them......"oh, you all are finally here....we stayed ahead for a while".

Right.......When we saw what was going on, we intentionally waited longer at the stop and let them leave. Hoping they'd be gone. Still caught most of them over only a few miles despite the fact we stopped for a couple minutes at the stop point.

Home slices thinking they're "winning" the group ride after in reality they got dropped 4 times, then decided to blow the stop to pretend to get ahead.

Anyway. I'd have gotten a KOM on one nice little segment headed uphill for a while, but the idiot who made it stopped it darn near in the middle of the intersection. Since we stopped behind the car in front of us.........timer kept running.

After we caught the turds, two of us who had been playing by the rules earlier decided to stomp a mudhole in their asses the last two pimple hills.

It boils down to folks taking short cuts and doing dumb **** to keep up. It's the ego of not wanting to be the people showing up at the end of the hill/sector that everyone is waiting on.

We don't care. We enjoy waiting for you so that we actually have a group. We can all go ride alone anytime we want. We're glad you tried.

If it was a long country road route, these suckers would blow up off the front in a minute if actually having to work to stay away. It's just easier to blow regroup points because you can get away while soft pedaling and recovering.

This is why I had interest in the group ride games ideas. But, last night solidified that it wouldn't matter. People are going to do dumb stuff anyway and nothing will change. I'll just decide to choose what I want to do and go do it and shutup. I'll focus on the folks in the group worth spending time being around.
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Old 06-12-19, 09:20 AM
  #13553  
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I've been in exactly one group ride that was run as it should be (well, two, both the same group though, two different days/routes).

Both had a leader who was extremely well respected locally, took no **** on the road from anyone, checked everyone's ego, and asked people not to come back who couldn't obey the ride rules.

You have to have a leader willing to shut **** down and get rid of the bad apples, or it will devolve and the good people will stop coming because it's dangerous/annoying.
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Old 06-12-19, 09:31 AM
  #13554  
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Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
I used to do an abbreviated test, especially when just starting out again from nothing, to get a baseline and then do what you're saying.

I don't know that there's much benefit to testing frequently or at all when you have gobs of data and tons of examples of intervals either working or not working and how they felt. It also takes a heavy toll mentally and physically to do it right, and obviously especially if you're doing an actual 60 minute test (because you're insane).
Testing...I have yet to take a "test" and not feel anxious and then become affected by the outcome - good or bad. I do not want my brain to ever think...for even a microsecond that an FTP test is a limiter. But I know it will. So I trick my brain with the idea that FTP is just a sign post on the way to another place. It is a suggestion not a law of physics. I think this is very important differentiation otherwise, I am only as good as I test which I have proven not to be true.
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Old 06-12-19, 09:59 AM
  #13555  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I set FTP based upon recorded data and feel versus testing.
Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Testing...I have yet to take a "test" and not feel anxious and then become affected by the outcome - good or bad. I do not want my brain to ever think...for even a microsecond that an FTP test is a limiter. But I know it will. So I trick my brain with the idea that FTP is just a sign post on the way to another place. It is a suggestion not a law of physics. I think this is very important differentiation otherwise, I am only as good as I test which I have proven not to be true.
I think this makes a lot of sense.
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Old 06-12-19, 10:49 AM
  #13556  
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Add me to the 'fudge it' FTP list, I've been doing this long enough to know where I'm at based on my regular workouts. The problem now with FTP is differences of power in training systems (road bike, tt bike, trainer, etc). Software needs to change with the times; many people mix the trainer and outdoors, I have an indoor and outdoor FTP which skews all the metrics I use (ctl, time in zone, etc.) since I can only enter 1 FTP. I know people say this is a non issue but 6-12% is a huge difference. z3 indoors is z2 outdoors. If I go off my outdoor FTP I'm at 68 ctl, indoors its 78.
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Old 06-12-19, 11:17 AM
  #13557  
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I now have enough data to ditch the test. I know when it's time to stretch an interval's duration or pull some duration and add wattage.

The 3x3min getting easy? Either add 10w or stretch them to 3:30 or 4:00 pursuits.

I'm now doing my old 3x3min's for 4 minutes. I'm about to cut duration and add watts.

Same for my 3x10's. If I nail another 3x10, it'll go to 3x12.........then 3x9 with over/unders at more watts.

Same for SS. I was at 3x15 at a power a month ago, now up to 2x20. Next 1x40 and/or 1x60. Then back to 3x15 at 10w more.

Or.......subtract XXw for TT bike on same workout. Lol.
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Old 06-12-19, 11:55 AM
  #13558  
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I think the key is just having a consistent method that you can use to establish meaningful training zones. We are not going to get an accurate handle on your actual TP with any real world test - the key is the first letter of that FTP acronym.

Training indoors complicates things, maybe you can add a little arbitrary extra TSS for those workouts.
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Old 06-12-19, 11:58 AM
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I set out to do a 2x20' by feel at a solid Z4 this morning, but saw a fast looking guy on a TT bike at the end of my first interval so I kept going. Nothing like some cat 6 racing! He sat up before I reeled him in anyway.

Ended up with 1x40' at 94%, which is whatever. Pretty uncomfortable with my right hand continuing to go numb, and a persistent saddle sore that made me get out of the saddle a lot. That's OK!

I'm happy with the right and it fits right in with my training plans. I have no serious races left on my calendar for the year, just having fun out there. I've been low TSS for 5 weeks now and I want to put in a solid 3 week block just to give me some speed and fitness for weekly track races and bump my fitness before I take some time off the bike to travel with my fiancee.
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Old 06-12-19, 04:46 PM
  #13560  
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Beat the rain while kids were with the wife. Gotta sneak the time in.

Actually, more z5/6 (using 6 zones) time today alone than on the group ride.

I made a rule for the ride: if uphill you go 300+ watts. If itís a little 15 seconds pimple, 400+. No excuses.

About 260w NP for the hour, with a good bit of zero watt coasting down curvy neighborhood hills.

I about locked up my calves twice. I shook it out and finished fine. Not enough lunch and no pregame snacks. Booooo that.
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Old 06-12-19, 06:07 PM
  #13561  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Testing...I have yet to take a "test" and not feel anxious and then become affected by the outcome - good or bad. I do not want my brain to ever think...for even a microsecond that an FTP test is a limiter. But I know it will. So I trick my brain with the idea that FTP is just a sign post on the way to another place. It is a suggestion not a law of physics. I think this is very important differentiation otherwise, I am only as good as I test which I have proven not to be true.
I essentially ride tests quite frequently, in that I do regular 20K TTs and a fair number of long intervals. Iím also totally game for riding a test whenever, just rest up and do it, if for some reason it was important to do so. But mostly my numbers are set off routine training or racing efforts, just like yours.

To me FTP is such a loose concept- thereís an FTP for the road bike and a different on for the TT bike, one for an aggressive TT position and one for a less aggressive position, for normal altitude and for high altitude, for trained-to-40K-distance vs trained-to-some-other-difference. FTP doesnít even literally mean much to me, because Iím mostly racing some distance less than 40K and then Iím going to race some percentage of FTP that will depend on a lot of factors- temps, time on the course, wind, rest, preparation, familiarity with the course, and so on.

FTP is useful to set training numbers and you really do have to have a number. But I agree it doesnít define what youíre going to do out on the race course, or what youíre capable of.
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Old 06-12-19, 06:29 PM
  #13562  
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Pretty anemic 10K race effort for me today out on the NSG TT course. Couldn’t get my head into it. Heat, wind, altitude, and short distance- all things that are not really in my wheelhouse. Whatever, I am for some reason completely nonplussed. Today’s effort may relate to Sunday’s race, or it may not. We will find out on race day.

We’re having such an enjoyable time here in Albuquerque. My main task is resting and I’ve been taking that to heart. Sleeping tons, relaxing around the rental house, watching the dog enjoy the yard. The most taxing thing we’ve done (besides me doing race efforts) is go out to lunch. Once. It’s been awesome.

It’s also been such an interesting process to embrace training for a goal that lies outside your strengths. I’ve learned a lot and am really glad I did it. Would even be willing to do it again. But I’m also really looking forward to some big volume riding once I get past NSG, that will be totally delicious.
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Old 06-13-19, 09:09 AM
  #13563  
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This is probably my best weight loss for a month. To be fair, the numbers are fudged. The first day was just after getting back from French Polynesia, which I was up for 24 hours and at 6 meals during that period including 2 Big Macs and a Royale with Cheese because I can't order in French.



I'm 7 lbs off my goal; but really its going to be where I end up at 5-6% bodyfat and I think that's 138. I'm hoping to hit that next month and if my FTP stays the same, that puts me at 4.6 w/kg. Next few months there are some races with elevation so I really need to start putting in big miles on climbs.

Edit: I really need to set up a spreadsheet that tracks my skinfold bodyfat testing, because that's a much better metric for this stuff.
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Old 06-13-19, 09:28 AM
  #13564  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I'm 7 lbs off my goal; but really its going to be where I end up at 5-6% bodyfat and I think that's 138. I'm hoping to hit that next month and if my FTP stays the same, that puts me at 4.6 w/kg. Next few months there are some races with elevation so I really need to start putting in big miles on climbs.
I've not done this song and dance long enough to have gotten to a point yet to worry about it........but have you done any kind of strategy like "build power then lose weight and hold power"? As a cycle?

I comfortably bounce around in the 150's, comfortably meaning I can pretty much eat/snack/drink as I please.

It feels like I should get to my power limitations first, then tweek the weight. I'm still a little time off from reaching an hours per week versus power plateau.

It's coming, but likely still a year plus out there. It's simply not mountainous enough here for me to bother yet.

If I plateau on power in another year, I may target a "segment time" fondo and drop some weight to go for the age grouper podium.

Just curious your strategy over time as you seem to have been in the game longer.
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Old 06-13-19, 10:27 AM
  #13565  
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Rode around Fiesta yesterday. Nice weather, great day, felt good and was passed by one of my teammates riding with a buddy like I had a drag chute deployed. He makes Julian Alaphilippe look fat.

Speaking of drag chutes, I did some passing of my own of a rider on a road bike in aerobars with a windbreaker that looked like it was inflated plus it had a hood that was occasionally catching the wind.
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Old 06-13-19, 12:22 PM
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You see some pretty interesting specimens out on Fiesta at times.
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Old 06-13-19, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I've not done this song and dance long enough to have gotten to a point yet to worry about it........but have you done any kind of strategy like "build power then lose weight and hold power"? As a cycle?

I comfortably bounce around in the 150's, comfortably meaning I can pretty much eat/snack/drink as I please.

It feels like I should get to my power limitations first, then tweek the weight. I'm still a little time off from reaching an hours per week versus power plateau.

It's coming, but likely still a year plus out there. It's simply not mountainous enough here for me to bother yet.

If I plateau on power in another year, I may target a "segment time" fondo and drop some weight to go for the age grouper podium.

Just curious your strategy over time as you seem to have been in the game longer.
Weight loss does not affect my threshold power at all so I don't worry about losing power. My top end has suffered for other reasons so the plan is to hit the weights after the season (September); the races I have scheduled are all FTP based (long climbs) and lifting always give me an insatiable hunger which makes it hard to lose weight. I'll go with high weight low rep compound exercises in the gym; in theory that strengthens the muscle with the least amount of fatigue and growth.

It took me a long time to come to this (because it makes training less fun) but if you're over 10% bodyfat you should lose weight and then hit the gym. The only ones that may be exempt for that are crit sprinters, but even then that's person specific. Outside of your sprint, you shouldn't lose power (unless your diet is too strict).

A lot of people ride and race so they can eat whatever they want, and that definitely works as well.
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Old 06-14-19, 06:33 AM
  #13568  
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It's rained a lot here the last week or so and had to let the grass get taller for a bit. Last night was time to pay the piper. Before starting I powerwashed the under deck and sharpened the blade for the impending work. I had to double cut it to get all the blades cut and also mulch it and spread the shavings good enough.

After all that mess had an hour to myself and snuck out on the bike again. Took it easy with just a single KOM attempt. It's a little down and up local. I was tired and hungry and only managed about 550ish for the 40ish seconds. Usually I can get over 600 for that time. Some of it was the darn stoplight you have to catch green for your "runup" changes so fast I didn't have a lot of space to wind up the effort.

So essentially it was a peak and fade low power sprint. I think I held 700 for like 20 seconds of it then faded down.
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Old 06-14-19, 09:51 AM
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Commuted this morning for the first time.

It was nice. 33 minutes or so, 120 W average, which for me is decent, because I'm atrociously out of shape.

Felt better and more alert when I got to work than usual.
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Old 06-14-19, 05:17 PM
  #13570  
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San Diego Velodrome - warmup, jumps and anaerobic threshold work. Nice day at the track but windy toward the end of the session.
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Old 06-16-19, 11:51 PM
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Did 99 miles today - was pleased to get the distance just under 100 to anger the Strava Freds. It's actually hard to "time" it just right so that you come in above 99 but under 100. My life goal is 99.9 but that will take a few tries I think.

The "100" number I did want to cross however was CTL - hit 102 today, just in time for a rest week!
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Old 06-17-19, 05:09 AM
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After three days off the bike, I rode Saturday and Sunday. Saturday was about 2:15 at endurance pace and felt pretty good. Sunday was about 2:45 with more than two hours at L3 on the hottest day so far this year, and I felt it. Took my shower, drank my smoothie, and got an hour-and-a-half dead-to-the-world nap. That got my TSB to +4.

Off the bike today, nose returns to grindstone tomorrow. Wednesday and Saturday are the big days this week, with Wednesday being at my climbing course with about five hours total and at least 45 minutes at Climbing Repeat level (~105%) in the last two hours. I'm doing the Gran Fondo Asheville course and the biggest climb starts at mile 82 in a 100-mile ride, this is the only way I can prepare for it. 20 hours on the bike this week.
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Old 06-17-19, 07:48 AM
  #13573  
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Endurance rides both days along the coast this weekend. We are in our June gloom time of year so the sky was overcast and there was a mist on Sunday.
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Old 06-17-19, 08:45 AM
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I've done 3 training weeks and normally this would be a rest week, but 2 of those I had 3 days (Wed, Thur, Fri) or low TSS, so I may just go another.

Did a ton of climbing and almost got blown off a mountain (Highway 243) and I had to turn back, and then just did tempo on the trail.

Yesterday we went up to Forest Falls; a teammate tried to get one of Phils KOM's and he came pretty close. Had I put in a better pull and we had another body up the road he would have done it.


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Old 06-17-19, 09:26 AM
  #13575  
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I feel like a loser.

I can't seem to organize well around family stuff and the June TT event is out.

I'm making gains most places perhaps except in the 1min to 2min range of power. But that's not been a focus.

Father's Day morn did an in town ride at close to 20mph for 75 feet a mile. Some good 8min long efforts a few times.

Gain some top 10's and a KOM on a ride this week, lose some to local Collegiate A's and P/1/2 riders. Such is the circle of life.

I found a great training route in-town. If the group doesn't want to do it, so be it, but it's over 25min of nonstop riding in the city. Unheard of. It's a hilly 4-mile long road you can do out and back on.

Another bummer.........our amazing local gravel race is permanently gone. It was already a stretch holding it on opened trails in a public park anyway. It was inevitable.

Checked the website the other day and it had the notice up. Huge bummer, it was a great event locally that always sold out.
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