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Riding "Measurement Free"

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Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Riding "Measurement Free"

Old 06-24-19, 07:58 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
Regarding your statement "The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh."

I guess that I should add that the kids here have no idea what can and cannot be done, and should be paying more attention to their elders ... sigh"

dave
Congrats on that sub 5hr century. That requires quite a high level of fitness to achieve at any age.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
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Old 06-24-19, 08:22 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
They're looking at their watch to see how fast they're currently going in relation to how fast they should be going. If I try to take a marathon at my 10k pace, I'm gonna blow up before it's half over. This is very much like how cyclists use power meters for pacing.
I know little about runners. Cycling collegiate team adult was the former NCAA running champ for CO I think. He stated he ran with RPE and did not use anything. I know of a few other cyclists. To date I don't know anyone at the top who states they use a PM to go faster. I posted the two of the fastest (Cam is not USA, but a local).
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules.

I think you know I shopped my kid rowing and had a great time listening to the Princeton coach with his team that year, that won Nationals. They had the stuff. It was all about feel of the oar, boat swagger. They didn't use PM oars, or even the results from the machines. He built the boat based on what made the boat the fastest. Actually a normal thing where they have seat competition and move rowers around to see who makes the boat go faster. This is in spite of the ERG numbers.

So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
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Old 06-24-19, 08:31 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I know little about runners. Cycling collegiate team adult was the former NCAA running champ for CO I think. He stated he ran with RPE and did not use anything. I know of a few other cyclists. To date I don't know anyone at the top who states they use a PM to go faster. I posted the two of the fastest (Cam is not USA, but a local).
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules.

I think you know I shopped my kid rowing and had a great time listening to the Princeton coach with his team that year, that won Nationals. They had the stuff. It was all about feel of the oar, boat swagger. They didn't use PM oars, or even the results from the machines. He built the boat based on what made the boat the fastest. Actually a normal thing where they have seat competition and move rowers around to see who makes the boat go faster. This is in spite of the ERG numbers.

So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
A friend of mine has done dozens of marathons and several 50 mile runs. Like most runners, she goes by pace. Before a race, she sits down with the map and figures out where she needs to be at each hour. Not uncommon.
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Old 06-24-19, 08:37 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
A friend of mine has done dozens of marathons and several 50 mile runs. Like most runners, she goes by pace. Before a race, she sits down with the map and figures out where she needs to be at each hour. Not uncommon.
I'll tap out on runners. Not on fast cyclists. I presented two elite in video.

I saw it personally, which is just my opinion, but nobody local using a PM was faster than the ones that didn't. They didn't, and don't know or care the numbers in the weights. They do know who got the Strava KOM.
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Old 06-24-19, 08:47 PM
  #55  
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Power meters are incredibly useful for training effectively, especially with any time limits. And training makes you faster. There's really no credible argument against this.
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Old 06-24-19, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
To date I don't know anyone at the top who states they use a PM to go faster. I posted the two of the fastest (Cam is not USA, but a local).
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules. [...]

So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
Wiggins absolutely positively used a PM in training and prep for the hour. Victor Campenaerts (who is the fastest for the hour) did, too. Peter Sagan uses a PM. All three of those guys are faster than your kid.
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Old 06-24-19, 09:27 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
True story here. I ran the Boston Marathon the year that Rosie Ruiz "won" the event. I ran with a friend who was a tad faster than me. The pace felt really fast but somehow I did not see a mileage marker until the 10th mile. It was really crowded and I just didn't see any. I told my buddy "Jerry - this is too fast for me" and he said "hang in there - you are doing fine". I just ducked behind a group of guys and Jerry had no idea where I was so he stayed on his pace and I slowed down to mine (and just absolutely died the last 3 miles).

dave

ps. If Rosie had really run the race she said then she would have passed me somewhere in the last 3rd of the race. There were very few females in the race at that time and any time you were around a woman there would be this 'roar' that just followed you and her (followed her anyway). No way could she 'sneak around me'.
Rosie might have gotten away with it, if she hadn't crossed the line wearing flip flops, carrying a beer and smoking a cigarette.
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Old 06-24-19, 10:02 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Wiggins absolutely positively used a PM in training and prep for the hour. Victor Campenaerts (who is the fastest for the hour) did, too. Peter Sagan uses a PM. All three of those guys are faster than your kid.
I don't think I posted about my kid, but thanks for the information. Yes, both would be faster for anything over 5 min*, certainly now, under that and I doubt you'd know. He's ridden with Peter and teammates several times.

My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free", as are the two videos I posted above.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.

*Actually you can lookup Peace Race in Czech Republic ITT. I don't know Peter's health, but mine was recovering from sickness, being hit by a motorcycle and had the mechanic put the wheel on backwards, but did quite a bit faster time than Peter a few years before same course, same race, same age.

Last edited by Doge; 06-24-19 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 06-24-19, 10:25 PM
  #59  
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Old 06-24-19, 11:12 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Power meters are incredibly useful for training effectively, especially with any time limits. And training makes you faster. There's really no credible argument against this.
You just state that. What makes that better than training to fatigue. Is that argument not credible? Same coach for our 1984 Olympic Gold Medal as in the video I posted.

I posted two videos, of my non-kid fast TT riders. You ignore them as data as does the author who contribute to books about training with power. I certainly understand his motivation.

But where are the videos and statements from elites that they really need them. I already posted 100% of the pros have PMs. That does not mean they train to a number. And we know in certain events they may not use them, so why train to a power number when in competition you don't get to use a PM?

This is a decade long thing that I have not seen anyone get faster from. I'm asking - show me the YouTube video. I gave you two, Fabian is another. Where are the riders saying they used a PM to win.
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Old 06-24-19, 11:14 PM
  #61  
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I used to ride brevets in Ohio and Kentucky with another randonneur who used no electronics at all. A paper cue sheet and dead reckoning were his tools. Old school, riding a 600k with nothing but flat repair, lights, cue sheet, some money, and a bit of clothing.

He had as much fun as the rest of us, never missed a turn as far as I recall, and was a middle of the pack finisher.

Electronics can be useful, but are not by any means necessary.
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Old 06-24-19, 11:25 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
Congrats on that sub 5hr century. That requires quite a high level of fitness to achieve at any age.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
Ya I agree if itís true congrats I just canít imagine a 66 year old pulling this off for some reason. Lol most guys that age have trouble getting up the stairs
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Old 06-25-19, 12:25 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I don't think I posted about my kid, but thanks for the information. Yes, both would be faster for anything over 5 min*, certainly now, under that and I doubt you'd know. He's ridden with Peter and teammates several times.

My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free", as are the two videos I posted above.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.

*Actually you can lookup Peace Race in Czech Republic ITT. I don't know Peter's health, but mine was recovering from sickness, being hit by a motorcycle and had the mechanic put the wheel on backwards, but did quite a bit faster time than Peter a few years before same course, same race, same age.
As you would know, any track tt type track event is ridden to a schedule. This may get tweaked slightly along the way depending on how the rider is feeling but they definitely have an ongoing "measurement" to pace by. It isn't just done solely by RPE.
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Old 06-25-19, 07:23 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
Congrats on that sub 5hr century. That requires quite a high level of fitness to achieve at any age.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
Originally Posted by MyTi View Post
Ya I agree if itís true congrats I just canít imagine a 66 year old pulling this off for some reason. Lol most guys that age have trouble getting up the stairs
You really do need a sense of what can and cannot be done. What I did was not elite performance, even on an age adjusted basis. I am not (or was not) even the fastest guy around my age in the area that I ride. You need a lot more information and basic understanding before you just call someone a liar.

dave
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Old 06-25-19, 07:55 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record).
Your statement about Wiggins, as you *should* know, was incorrect for two reasons: 1) Campenaerts holds the record, not Wiggins. 2) Wiggins (and Campenaerts) rode with power meters -- they just weren't allowed to ride with a *display*. They also used PMs to prep for the hour record.

I don't think I posted about my kid, but thanks for the information.
How would I know about your kid unless you posted about him? Oh, you've posted about your kid. So, this is a third thing you're incorrect about.

Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.
I don't need to. I've worked with several riders who've set the hour record. I can only work with them because I have their speed and power data. I've also worked with a few Olympic track pursuit and sprint riders. They don't race with the display but they're recording the data, and they train with the power meter and the display so they can be analyzed later. I wouldn't've been able to work with them without speed and power data.
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Old 06-25-19, 08:14 AM
  #66  
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I love reading arguments like these. I ride a road bike and have never been hit by lightning. Riding road bikes is an excellent lightning bolt deterrent.

I use a power meter and get faster. Much faster than I would without it.

How do I know, because I just know. Disagree and I'll argue.
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Old 06-25-19, 08:44 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free"
It's not exactly "Measurement Free" if the rider gets his pace displayed every lap.
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Old 06-25-19, 10:20 AM
  #68  
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Power meters are incredibly useful for training effectively, especially with any time limits. And training makes you faster. There's really no credible argument against this.
Originally Posted by Doge View Post
You just state that. What makes that better than training to fatigue.
Ha ha, I didn't realize you were trolling. You got me.
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Old 06-25-19, 10:46 AM
  #69  
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I rode near electronics free forever. Just bought an Elemnt Bolt for a ride I just did to track mileage and stay in sync with the cue sheet. Pretty enlightening just riding with it and seeing average speed and trying to nudge it up. Also riding centuries solo and trying to keep the HR under a number.

Ben
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Old 06-25-19, 01:42 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
You just state that. What makes that better than training to fatigue. Is that argument not credible? Same coach for our 1984 Olympic Gold Medal as in the video I posted.

SNIP
How exactly does this 'only training to the point of fatigue work'. If I were to seriously take up training for something like maybe a competitive hundred mile bike ride of some form (just to pick something), I would need to train for riding a lot of miles, the ability to handle surges, and (possibly) extended high intensity efforts associated with longer climbs.

I guess that I can imagine training for the surges by simply 'riding at some high level until I cannot proceed'. And I can imagine the climb piece by simply attacking a hill such that i can't reach the top because of the pace I choose. I am not saying that I would make those training choices, but I can imagine how one would do that.

But how do you get in the miles you need? Are you thinking that on a day where your training plan requires an extended (say 50 miles) ride, you ride it in a manner that you are completely exhausted at the end? Is that it?

I just don't get it and I don't think that ANYBODY can train every day on a bike by 'training to failure'. But maybe I don't understand what you are saying.

dave
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Old 06-25-19, 04:55 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
How exactly does this 'only training to the point of fatigue work'. If I were to seriously take up training for something like maybe a competitive hundred mile bike ride of some form (just to pick something), I would need to train for riding a lot of miles, the ability to handle surges, and (possibly) extended high intensity efforts associated with longer climbs.

I guess that I can imagine training for the surges by simply 'riding at some high level until I cannot proceed'. And I can imagine the climb piece by simply attacking a hill such that i can't reach the top because of the pace I choose. I am not saying that I would make those training choices, but I can imagine how one would do that.

But how do you get in the miles you need? Are you thinking that on a day where your training plan requires an extended (say 50 miles) ride, you ride it in a manner that you are completely exhausted at the end? Is that it?

I just don't get it and I don't think that ANYBODY can train every day on a bike by 'training to failure'. But maybe I don't understand what you are saying.

dave
It sounds like you may not understand what I am saying, that is on me.

I am proposing a philosophy, that says max strength (and short range power) is developed through max muscle fatigue (when warmed up etc.), and then recovery. Some of these ideas have been around a very long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Slow

Typically training to failure would be only in a gym and only certain times, and ideally with a spotter so you can finish a rep. But the person does not start thinking 150# X 8 reps. They may start 80X15, then 100X12 then 150 times whatever it is, and not finish a rep. They are going to a level of fatigue. A trainer really helps.
Other times the person training is training to a fatigue level. It may not be failure. But it is based on how they feel, rest etc.

Miles on the bike are particularly good for building endurance, not so much power, as compared to a gym.

It may have been missed, but I did post above 100% of the pros have PMs. And likely many of their coaches care. It is a great tool for telling the coach what is going on.
WT pros are more about endurance, day in and day out. While it sounds ridiculous to suggest kids are faster than pros - they often are. See ToC, see swimming see many track events, on the bike and running. I don't know so much how to go from a fast 3 day racer to a 7, 12, 15 and 20 day racer. I do believe building speed is better accomplished with non bike things and non number things. "Measurement Free".
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Old 06-25-19, 05:04 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Miles on the bike are particularly good for building endurance, not so much power, as compared to a gym.
Other than in the limit of zero, time I don't see what the difference is between building endurance and power. How is it different to say I increased the watts I could maintain for X seconds (increased power) from saying I increased the time I could maintain X watts (increased endurance)? In other words, how is shifting the power-duration curve to the right different from shifting it up?
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Old 06-25-19, 05:15 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Other than in the limit of zero, time I don't see what the difference is between building endurance and power. How is it different to say I increased the watts I could maintain for X seconds (increased power) from saying I increased the time I could maintain X watts (increased endurance)? In other words, how is shifting the power-duration curve to the right different from shifting it up?
For the cases of X being small (say under 5 seconds), vs being kind of intermediate (say 20 seconds), vs long (say 20 minutes), these are all very different physiological processes. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22417/ for one of many references available.

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Old 06-25-19, 05:17 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
For the cases of X being small (say under 5 seconds), vs being kind of intermediate (say 20 seconds), vs long (say 20 minutes), these are all very different physiological processes. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22417/ for one of many references available.

dave
I understand the physiology (and so how you would train) may be different for different durations, but conceptually what is the difference between increasing power and increasing endurance?
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Old 06-25-19, 05:21 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
It sounds like you may not understand what I am saying, that is on me.

I am proposing a philosophy, that says max strength (and short range power) is developed through max muscle fatigue (when warmed up etc.), and then recovery. Some of these ideas have been around a very long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Slow

Typically training to failure would be only in a gym and only certain times, and ideally with a spotter so you can finish a rep. But the person does not start thinking 150# X 8 reps. They may start 80X15, then 100X12 then 150 times whatever it is, and not finish a rep. They are going to a level of fatigue. A trainer really helps.
Other times the person training is training to a fatigue level. It may not be failure. But it is based on how they feel, rest etc.

Miles on the bike are particularly good for building endurance, not so much power, as compared to a gym.

It may have been missed, but I did post above 100% of the pros have PMs. And likely many of their coaches care. It is a great tool for telling the coach what is going on.
WT pros are more about endurance, day in and day out. While it sounds ridiculous to suggest kids are faster than pros - they often are. See ToC, see swimming see many track events, on the bike and running. I don't know so much how to go from a fast 3 day racer to a 7, 12, 15 and 20 day racer. I do believe building speed is better accomplished with non bike things and non number things. "Measurement Free".
Then this sounds like progress and (I assume) you would agree that for an endurance workout with specific exertion targets, that a power meter would be a excellent way to monitor said workout.

dave
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