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Wheelset upgrade questions

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Wheelset upgrade questions

Old 08-10-19, 07:46 AM
  #26  
noodle soup
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post

The OP could buy some very nice tires and a complete 105 groupset for about half the cost of those DuraAce wheels.
Are his wheels 11 speed compatible? If so, that's how I would spend the money.
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Old 08-10-19, 07:54 AM
  #27  
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I've no idea what year the OP has, but even the 2020 Allez (no suffix, just Allez) comes equipped with 8-speed Claris, and Axis Sport wheels. I can't find anything about that particular wheelset. The disc version of the Axis has a 10/11 speed freehub, so it's relatively safe to assume it's the same freehub on the non-disc wheelset. Is anyone even making new OEM wheels without 10/11 freehubs?
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Old 08-10-19, 08:00 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by p4k9 View Post
Yes! Or in my case make sure they’re properly inflated before each ride. It really makes a difference

The funny thing is, you're probably faster with the tires under inflated- as soft as you can get away with.

AFAK wearing out the tires before replacing them, you probably weren't thinking that you had to wear out the wheels before getting new ones,

so the same could be for the tires.
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Old 08-10-19, 08:13 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
The funny thing is, you're probably faster with the tires under inflated- as soft as you can get away with.

AFAK wearing out the tires before replacing them, you probably weren't thinking that you had to wear out the wheels before getting new ones,

so the same could be for the tires.
Optimal tyre pressure is around whatever makes the loaded tyre sag 15% - higher for smooth surfaces, lower for rough surfaces. You might want to allow a bit more in the front to account for weight transfer when braking.

Higher pressures are faster, except they make you bounce. So you want the highest pressure that allows the tyre to suspend you properly, assuming rolling resistance is your priority.

+1 bugger waiting until the tyres are worn.
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Old 08-10-19, 08:20 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I've no idea what year the OP has, but even the 2020 Allez (no suffix, just Allez) comes equipped with 8-speed Claris, and Axis Sport wheels. I can't find anything about that particular wheelset. The disc version of the Axis has a 10/11 speed freehub, so it's relatively safe to assume it's the same freehub on the non-disc wheelset. Is anyone even making new OEM wheels without 10/11 freehubs?
I'd really have to look at the bikes we have on the floor. Most people that are buying the lower end models, aren't looking to upgrade groupsets later on. Those that do want to upgrade to better components, usually buy complete bikes.
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Old 08-10-19, 11:13 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Optimal tyre pressure is around whatever makes the loaded tyre sag 15% - higher for smooth surfaces, lower for rough surfaces. You might want to allow a bit more in the front to account for weight transfer when braking.

Higher pressures are faster, except they make you bounce. So you want the highest pressure that allows the tyre to suspend you properly, assuming rolling resistance is your priority.

+1 bugger waiting until the tyres are worn.


I think this has been dis-proven and for normal road surfaces, lower pressure is faster pretty much to the limits of snake bites, rim damage, and squirmy handling in turns.

So the reverse- you want the lowest pressure that allows the tire to....
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Old 08-11-19, 12:41 AM
  #32  
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If that was true, perhaps you should tell track riders to stop running 160psi.

The old wisdom about rolling resistance was wrong because the tires being too hard meant forward motion was being translated into vertical motion of the bike and rider.

But the idea behind it was based on the very real drag of hysteresis from the tyres, which hasn't disappeared just because we suddenly want the tyres to do suspension. It's a matter of balancing the two factors, which depends on the quality of the surface you're riding. This commonly translates to around 10-15psi less than the old recommendations, which IIRC more or less agrees with the 15% sag rule.
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Old 08-11-19, 01:03 AM
  #33  
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Track riders enjoy a very smooth surface, the tire doesn't have to flex around any texture like on the road. Even the newest and best pavement - which is rare - is nothing like a polished track.
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Old 08-11-19, 02:20 AM
  #34  
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Um, yeah, that's why you use about half track pressure on the road, just like I said. But @woodcraft here seems to believe lower pressure is plain faster, with the only downside being pinch flats and squirm.

Hysteresis is still a thing. The optimal pressure is the highest amount that still absorbs most of the irregularities that would lift the wheel if the tyre was hard.

The other thing that's changed in our awareness is that we know a wider tyre has a faster contact patch because it's not as long, so we're using 25s and 28s instead of 23s and 25s, thus using the lower pressures appropriate for wider tyres.

But it's all about striking a compromise; it's not like wide and soft is the be-all and end-all. Tyres weigh something, and have to push a hole through the air, and they have to absorb energy when they deform, just like we've always known.

Last edited by Kimmo; 08-11-19 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 08-11-19, 10:08 AM
  #35  
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That's why I ride 28s and not 280s. 🙂
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Old 08-11-19, 11:10 AM
  #36  
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I think I've overstated my case- I ride tubulars which perform well to lower pressures,

but I still think that the 15% drop rule is from the old, harder-is-faster era.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2019/...ure-is-faster/

In this article, fig.1 shows testing on super-smooth asphalt. Results would likely skew to lower pressures on regular pavement, and rider weight is not addressed but would no doubt change results in either direction.
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Old 08-12-19, 09:25 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by firebird854 View Post
The best upgrade you can do is a change of wheelset, if you're really trying to min-max the bike, an $800 wheelset on an $800 bike would be a great upgrade. In my honest opinion however, I would upgrade to 11 speed 105 and a new wheelset.
This guy knows what he's talking about

I put (msrp) $1700 on my (msrp) $1800 bike, and I don't regret the decision. If you're gonna shell out though, may as well go tubeless, IMO. Also, search cl and ebay for deals.
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