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Nice Campy Bits But Unknown Pedigree - Pls Help Me Identify This Frame!

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Nice Campy Bits But Unknown Pedigree - Pls Help Me Identify This Frame!

Old 05-17-19, 09:31 AM
  #1  
Flying G
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Nice Campy Bits But Unknown Pedigree - Pls Help Me Identify This Frame!

A contact sent me photos of a frame with components that he wants to sell. I suspect that it is Italian but I'm not very familiar with vintage Italian road bikes but suspect that it may be a DeRosa, Masi or something else with the heart on the lugs. The only info that I have to work with are the attached photos. No measurements, history or other info available at this point.
Pls help me answer 2 questions:
1. What is it?
2. What should I offer for the whole enchilada? No wheels, saddle post or saddle available. Oh, and probably missing the post binder bolt and some other odds and ends.
Thanks in advance for your help!


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Old 05-17-19, 09:39 AM
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I'm going to say it's a Micheal Johnson, just like it says, it looks like a very well made, beautiful custom to me with the thinned lugs.

He comes right up in a google search on linkedin.

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Old 05-17-19, 10:42 AM
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It has all the hallmarks of 1970s American framebuilders: fastback seatstays, thinned lugs, extremely precise workmanship, (probably) imron paint, a few hippie-like artistic flourishes.

It's hard to put values on custom road bikes, except for the most well known and prolific builders. Well known Italian factory racing bikes often sell for higher prices, because they are a known commodity. American custom frames from this era were actually better built than most Italian frames. Italian racing bikes were functional racing machines first and foremost. They weren't trying to make a great work of art necessarily.

Oh, I'm also going to go with: it's a Michael Johnson....
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Old 05-17-19, 11:10 AM
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The Google says Michael Johnson worked for Jim Redcay and currently owns Wheelfine imports bikes in NJ. Maybe some more information can be gained by emailing his shop.
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Old 05-17-19, 12:36 PM
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I called and spoke with Michael Johnson at Wheelfine in NJ this morning and he wasn't the builder or frame maker. He is quite a character and lamented the obstacles facing LBSs these days. Interestingly, someone else also called him about a different/same Michael Johnson frame recently.
The sticker on the seat tube looked pretty cheap so I didn't take it seriously but maybe it is original.
Thanks for the rapid fire feedback . . . . the plot thickens!
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Old 05-17-19, 01:22 PM
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The Micheal Johnson that comes up on linkedin is from Raleigh NC so could be a different one. He was/is listed as being associated with ****** Bike Co. but his profile seems light and maybe outdated, might be something though.
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Old 05-17-19, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
It has all the hallmarks of 1970s American framebuilders: fastback seatstays, thinned lugs, extremely precise workmanship, (probably) imron paint, a few hippie-like artistic flourishes.

It's hard to put values on custom road bikes, except for the most well known and prolific builders. Well known Italian factory racing bikes often sell for higher prices, because they are a known commodity. American custom frames from this era were actually better built than most Italian frames. Italian racing bikes were functional racing machines first and foremost. They weren't trying to make a great work of art necessarily.

Oh, I'm also going to go with: it's a Michael Johnson....
++++ Total agreement. And from the post below this... Someone who worked for Jim Redcay... makes perfect sense. That's fine workmanship.

I like it. What size is it? Trade you one of them there italian frames beginning with a "G" for it.......

Last edited by Last ride 76; 05-17-19 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 05-18-19, 12:22 PM
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Turned out to be a 58cm ctc and for the most part, the frame is in good shape with a couple of scrapes and a little surface rust, mostly on the BB shell. Should look great after a bath, buff and wax. I didn't want to believe the Michael Johnson decal but I spotted a few others on the internet last night and they show the same craftsmanship and appearance as this one. Columbus tubing and haven't weighed it yet but feels pretty light.
Thanks for the offer to trade but I have a full bike barn right now and will need to downsize and sell a few steel beasts, including this one, to free up some room. If still interested, pls pm.
Best regards!
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Old 05-18-19, 01:58 PM
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----

Another possible maker for the frame you may wish to look into is Lippy.

Dating: appears near to 1975.


-----

Last edited by juvela; 05-19-19 at 05:35 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 05-18-19, 06:18 PM
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Welcome to the club



Everyone says it looks like a nice frame but no one can ID it.
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Old 05-19-19, 04:08 AM
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For an unknown brand coupled with an incomplete component group, my offer would be low. Under a $100 for sure. And, should you get the bike, it might take years to identify its pedigree.

This Geoffrey Butler, a frame set sporting wonderful workmanship, took me four years of trying to identify. Finally, a fellow forum member came through with a positive ID. Suddenly, my unknown frame set went from near worthless to worth a lot more. I should add that finally determining what it was/is was worth the wait...
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Old 05-19-19, 11:06 AM
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Looks like a real gem and I'm sure you got a bargain whatever you paid. One word of warning, hope you have zero issues with the threads of the seat binder, since it was missing the bolt check the threaded portion carefully and maybe "chase" it with a tap before you fit the new bolt just in case...and grease it! I love the "blind" Dutch-style binder (I guess might be Albert Eisentraut's legacy to the art) but it can be a weakness, especially if a bolt snaps.
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Old 05-19-19, 11:12 AM
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36mm x 24 tpi, RH threaded Fixed cup is Italian way of dong that...
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Old 05-19-19, 02:41 PM
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Now that is a road bike!

The best part? The 3 options one can have for refreshments!
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Old 05-19-19, 02:44 PM
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Don't we all enjoy the mystery of trying to dig up the background on these bikes, frames and parts? Where they have been, who owned them, why they were altered, or loved/unloved/lost/found/restored to former glory or better?
Such an awesome hobby!
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Old 05-19-19, 05:25 PM
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Based only on the photos, this looks like one of the finest American made frames. The lugs are thinned, a heart is carved into the lugs and it has a blind seat stay bolt. In fact it looks like it was more finely made than more famous frames. This kind of work takes a lot longer to do and so paradoxically because fewer numbers were made they are less well known. And then the builder finds more profitable work so he didn’t build for a long time. It could be used as an example in my framebuilding classes of what my students should aspire to accomplish. Some thoughts:

Down tube lever bosses and one set of water bottle bosses and no top tube braze on cable guides would place it somewhere in the neighborhood of being made around 1972 or a bit later.

The blind seat bolt fastback style was a characteristic of builders between Oakland and Eugene. That method requires the use of a vertical mill so that rules out almost all amateurs with limited equipment.

Thinned lugs became popular because of the work of the father of modern American framebuilding Albert Eisentraut. Pictures of his details in Bicycling magazine encouraged others to copy. It was one way to show that young Americans put more effort into building frames than the popular but much more swiftly made frames from England or Italy.

The decal while not up to modern standards produced by Gary Prange was nicely done for that era. The graphics are good and it was common to print something on Mylar.

I thought I knew most of my colleagues who built in the 70’s but it is not a name I recognize. Unless a builder from another part of the country somehow got his name into one of the cycling magazines there wasn’t many other ways to broadly promote oneself. If Michael Johnson did have some connection to Jim Recay than it is likely Jeff Kellogg might know who he is. Jeff used to work with Jim and, if I remember right, Jim learned from Bill Boston (they both lived in New Jersey).
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Old 05-19-19, 08:42 PM
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More great info to work with - I truly appreciate everyone's thoughts and ideas.

We have had buckets of rain which is uncharacteristic for Northern CA this time of year so I've not ventured much to the Bike Barn to take a closer look at the frame and starting to clean it up. We also hosted the Davis Double Century ride yesterday in brutal cold, rainy conditions. Lowest completion rates for the 200, 100 and 60 mile rides we have had for quite some time.

With luck, we'll have some drier weather over the next week and I'll start tinkering with the latest steel beast. Will post more photos, if desired by others on this thread.

Again, thanks to everyone for the detective work!
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Old 06-09-19, 07:40 PM
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Michael Johnson Mystery Road Bike - More Info

Hi Everyone,
Thought that I would share more info about the bike (measurements and components) although I have made little progress in finding the builder. I thought that there was a connection through Steve Rex but that was a dry hole.
Here is a physical description of the bike along with some attached photos. I still struggle with the formatting on the BF threads but promise to get better!

· Italian Components:

o Neuvo Record Front Derailleur

o NR Rear Derailleur (Pat 78)

o Campy Headset (Aluminum?)

o 3TTT Super Leggero Bars and Stem

o 27.2mm Campy fluted saddle post (Super Record?)

o Pump Head on frame matching Silca Pump

o Cobra Italia gold water bottle cage

Weighed slightly over 22 lbs with heavy Ideale saddle and wheels. Forgot to include frame pump.


· Japanese Components:

o SunTour Superbe brakes and levers

o SunTour or Sugino Bottom Bracket?

o Sugino Super Mighty cranks and rings (52/42)

· French Component:

o Ideale TB 90 Rebour saddle (not dated)

· Measurements (all ctc):

o Seat Tube 57.5cm

o Top Tube 55.5cm

o Down Tube 64cm

· Other notes:

o Hearts painted on front lugs

o Very little if any wear from riding – no noticeable chain slap, brakes are barely worn

o Minor scratches on frame

o Suspect that yellow bar tape is original

o Other known Michael Johnson road bikes

§ Similar one (with black trumps on lug, same bar tape and components) on Fat Kitty Bike Shop in Boulder, CO 2013.

§ Another listed MJ roadbike on Craigslist in Berkeley, CA for $1,800

Next steps are to track down the POCs listed by others on this thread. Of course, if anyone reading this thread has more info, pls share!
Thanks!



With the heavy Ideale saddle and wheels, the bike weighed in at just over 22 lbs. Metallic color reminds me of Root Beer. Have not yet polished or waxed the frame . . . . some day. Rides well.


The only sticker/decal on the bike. Pegasus flying over the name Michael Johnson. Forgot to attach the matching Silca pump. Very minor surface rust where the bike may have been nicked by something.


Campy NR RD Pat 78. Bike did not come with wheels so I added a pair of Super Champion Gentleman 700 x 25s.


No chain slap and rings look pretty good. Gold Cobra Italia water bottle cage.


Bike came with an Ideale saddle and fluted Campy 27.2 seat post.


Brakes seem hardly worn. Recessed nut on mounting bolts for both front and rear.


Pretty sure that bar tape is original. It was filthy and gritty but cleaned up well. No scrapes on the bar ends.


I think that the Campy headset is aluminum but don't know for certain. Lugwork is nice.
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Old 06-09-19, 08:10 PM
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i really enjoy the little heart.
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Old 08-04-19, 11:57 PM
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I have one

I have a Michael Johnson. Same exact color scheme. I tried to post pictures but because I don't have 10 posts I couldnt.....
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Old 08-05-19, 12:03 AM
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Mine has the same fine lug work and seat tube sticker. It has stops on the downtube for bar end shifters. I bought mine on ebay about 7 years ago. it came from sacramento. it had color matched pump and blumel fenders. fenders/pump were destroyed in shipping due to bad packing.....
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Old 08-05-19, 08:41 AM
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Thx for responding to this thread about your MJ road bike although sorry to read about the shipping damage. Do you have any info about the builder? We can move the conversation to a pm thread if you want but I suspect that there may be a few others interested as well.
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Old 08-05-19, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Flying G View Post
Thx for responding to this thread about your MJ road bike although sorry to read about the shipping damage. Do you have any info about the builder? We can move the conversation to a pm thread if you want but I suspect that there may be a few others interested as well.
count me as interested
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Old 08-08-19, 11:28 PM
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Hi. Unfortunately, I know very little about the builder. I recall doing some research and making some calls. I believe that I called the owner of the bike shop in NJ several years ago, so he may be referring to my call....

I seem to recall reading something about the builder being from Northern California and that he was originally a wood worker/cabinet maker and that he moved on.
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Old 08-10-19, 05:41 PM
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Hi. Someone recently sent me a PM. Unfortunately because I do not have 10 posts, I am not allowed to see the PM in addition to post images.

Lets see, I joined in 2006 and I have 4 posts. If I keep posting at the same rate, I will probably be eligible to post pics and read the PM in 2033 or so.....
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