SkipII

Help from any Poseiden X owners:

I am looking at a Poseiden X but have concerns about some reviews that said it has an oddly aggressive frame configuration for a gravel bike. I understand "aggressive" to mean the head tube is low, forcing the rider to lean forward more, even if riding with hands on the top of the drop handlebars.

I am 5'7" with barely a 30" inseam and fairly short arms (30"" shirt sleeve). I prefer a more upright riding position to take some weight off my hands. I am 67 years old and will be doing mostly casual riding on bike paths and some gravel trails.

I love the features and build of this bike for the money, but I'm wondering if I'm too easily discounting the concerns about its aggressive stance. I'm not familiar with modding a bike like this, but can you raise the handlebar mount in some way?

I have talked with Jon and Luis at Poseiden but got two opinions on frame size (S & M) but it feels like they might be just going by frame size related to inseam and taking for granted the more aggressive riding position.

Anyone here with a Poseiden X have a views of this riding stance and whether it matters that much?

Thanks for any help.

Iride01 

You can always run your body measurements through a fit calculator and compare that to the frame geometry of the bike you are looking at. There are several decent ones I've actually tried in the past. But since they give you a recommended geometry, it makes comparing to a S, M, L or a CM size that bike mfrs give very challenging. I don't have the links readily available but there are many threads here that others have suggested them.

Glancing at the bike at it's website I don't know why they are considered aggressive by some, but I don't gravel bike or do cyclocross. I also tend to not be swayed by reviewers that don't give specific and detailed information. So in what way was it aggressive to them, how do they use their bike? For actual gravel riding in a fitness type, high effort or are they just a casual rider out for leisure?

Don't forget that geometry specs alone will fail to tell you if your position will be aggressive as many bikes come with a lot of spacers under the stem that raise the bars to levels more equal to seat height if that is what you are wanting. You also have to consider the reach of the stem and the reach on the bars themselves. Currently at 62 riding at a high effort and fast pace, I'm finding that I am wanting to go lower and aggressive is good and more comfortable both for butt and wrists/hands than I ever was when my seat and bars were near the same height.

Also, for casually riding on gravel roads and paths almost anything you can put wide tires on will be very suitable. Maybe even a fat bike (fat tire bike). So don't just think only gravel bikes can ride gravel. If you stick to just bikes marketed currently as gravel bikes, then you will probably be in frames that are intended for a more aggressive position than you are wanting.

SkipII

Thanks for your thorough and knowledgable response. If you don't mind. I'd like to cover the points you said and emphasize why this fit has been a challenge.

Yes, I've done quite a few. They generally come out as Medium or 52. (or 16", which apparently refers to the height of the center bar.) One person at Poseiden said my seat abound be slammed to the frame if I went with a Medium.

One review was quite specific on their view, comparing the aggressive stance of the frame against several others. It appears to be driven by the relative height of the head tube (10 cm compared with almost double other bikes in that category). Their point was that it definitely makes it hard to sit more upright for casual rides, which is likely to be my typical ride.)

That was one of my questions: Can I add spacers to raise the handlebars if needed? Should the handle bars be level with the seat? Right now in their pictures the handlebars seem quite a bit lower than the seat, which suggests a fairly aggressive stance.

I have not found a road bike in my price range that can take a fatter tire. I'm not looking for a cruiser either, just something where I am not crouched down low for 10-15 miles. As well, my understanding is that gravel bikes are actually generally less aggressive in stance to keep weight back in the seat.

Iride01 

Well generally less aggressive and wanting to sit upright are not the same thing. Cyclocross and Gravel bikes are marketed mainly toward a group that fits this description of the Cyclocross and Gravelbiking sub-forum here at BF
And you are wanting a casual, leisurely ride. So if you aren't wanting a road biker position. And most cyclocross and gravel bikes are a unique subset of road bikes to me........ Then you don't want specifically gravel bike, which to me is built and aimed at the above rider type. Might be a mountain bike is a better option.

But if you want a light bike, then cyclocross or gravel bike is probably the thing. But then you get back to nuances of aggressive and less aggressive that aren't anywhere near upright.

As for how many spacers are under the stem, you probably should ask for each model you seriously consider. I don't think there is any standardized number. Some bikes might have shorter steerer tubes on the forks they come with than other bikes.

SkipII

Why are sitting more upright and stance being less aggressive not the same thing? Everything I read says they are exactly the same thing.

As far as spacers, again, I am looking to perhaps raise the handlebars, not lower them by taking our spacers.

Iride01 

Well when I hear people say they want a more upright position, usually it seems to be people that want a fully upright position. Notice I said "upright" in my replies without the modifier, "more".

Anything road bike or designed with higher effort riding is not going to be comfortable in a fully upright position. IMO of course. Some force them into submission with stems and riser bars and all sorts of stuff. I'd just go for a different style bike so it doesn't look dorky.

As for spacers, you can't add spacers if the steerer tube is not long enough. That is why I recommended finding out how many typically are on that mode bike when new. Because you can only go lower from there, not higher. Unless you want to get another fork or rely on special extenders which I'd rather not use myself.


Edit.... just read over one of your previous posts. Don't think of me as "knowledgeable". I'm mainly just opinionated and don't mind sharing opinions of what I've perceived did and didn't work for me or view points on such. Frequently I do get some knowledgeable people riled up enough to reply and then after I do a little research on what they said, I might even change my opinion. I have done it several times here on BF if anyone was to ever dredge up things I said when a newb here and from what I say now.

c_m_shooter

Velo orange has a stem called the Cigne stem that will help you out if the headtyube on that frame is to short.

https://velo-orange.com/collections/stems

mack_turtle

the frame dimensions are not what makes a bike "aggressive." there's nothing stopping you from getting a frame that is the right size in the first place and then putting a higher stem or even a higher handlebar on it. a shorter stem will make it more upright as well. for that matter, you could convert it to a rise "flat" bar.

SkipII

I'm new to all this, but I simply don't understand your point. Of course frame geometry affects whether the bike has an "aggressive" posture -- in fact, is is the largest factor. If the head tube is notably lower, the handlebars are lower and you have to lean forward more. Everything I read calls that an aggressive geometry. It's the same if the frame is longer. I don't understand how a shorter stem would make the ride more upright.

If you are saying you can put a higher stem on it (effectively raising the handbags) , that was my question. I'm using drop bars, not flat, by the way. I've been told by some you can; others say no, that the shaft (stem?) on which the handlebar is mounted is part of the fork assembly.

mack_turtle

stem dimension make the way the bike fits highly adjustable. the short head tube means you have the option of setting it up with a super low handlebar, but it does not force the rider into that position. putting a shorter length stem on the bike will bring your hands closer to your body, which will allow the rider to sit more upright. a taller stem will have the same effect. any bike can be fitted with a shorter, taller cockpit to make it less "aggressive". a short head tube just requires more spacers and a less conventional stem to get the handlebar where you want it. there are also a few drop handlebars on the market that increase the height of the controls (Surly Truck Stop, Specialized Hover, Soma Condor, etc). so there is nothing stopping someone from setting up the Poseidon X with a upright position on a drop bar.

the top tube length on the Poseidon is not long for its size. the more you raise the handlebar, the shorter the reach gets.

take a look at the Cigne stem in the link above. that would bring your handlebar up and back quite a bit, making the fit of the bike much more relaxed and upright.

SkipII

Perfect. Good explanation. Exactly what I was hoping to learn. Thank you.

Iride01 

Your saddle height is going to be the thing you vary the least for any size frame you get. Whether you get a 48 cm frame or a 65 cm frame you'll want your saddle at the just about the same distance from the bottom of your pedal stroke. Once you got that firmly in your calculations for your frame, you can then easily see how much stack height you want. Don't forget to add the height the stem will be and it's length along with the reach on the bars (if drops). Then you'll have a better idea what size within the size range suggested by the maker that you want.

gsa103

Yes, it is. It's a long reach/low stack configuration. Compared to a Trek Domane (Endurance fit), the size Med has a 38.2cm reach, which is close to a 60cm Domane, but the stack is 54.9cm while the Domane is 63.2cm. So for the same reach the stack handlebar height on the Poseidon is 8.3cm(!) lower, that's a MASSIVE difference.
It's closer in sizing to Specialized Diverge (54cm) with 38.3cm reach, but that has a 57.8cm stack, so again, the Poseidon is 3cm lower.
The Trek Checkpoint has a stack of 56.7cm so it's more aggressive, but Poseidon is definitely the lowest of the bunch.
Even the Trek Boone (a CX race bike has a stack of 56.2cm), so it's more aggressive than a cyclo-cross race bike.

SkipII

I am new enough where I have no idea what all those number mean in practical terms. Can you please translate?

gsa103

Sure. Stack is the vertical distance from the BB (the center of the pedals) to the top of the frame at the stem. Reach is the horizontal distance forward to the stem. For a given stem length and angle, bikes with a higher stack will have the handlebars higher and more upright.

You can always use stems to make small tweaks, but changing the stem length by more than 20mm can effect handling, and it's hard to find stems with more than 15deg rise. So for example, a 90mm length, 15deg stem will have the handlebars 24mm higher than a 0deg stem.
Lots of bikes are going to higher stack so that people can run a -12deg stem (nearly level) for aesthetics and still achieve a comfortable riding position.

Basically, to match the fit position of a Diverge with no spacers, the Poseidon would need about 30mm of spacers under the stem. If you would ride a Diverge with several spacers under the stem, there's not really a way to get the Poseidon without resorting to very high angle stems. The Poseidon fit looks more like the geometry you'd see in the Pro peloton. I'd be hesitant to recommend it as a starting point for an older rider without a good idea of their fit.
Yes, you can almost certainly make it work, but you may have to resort to things like a 30deg stem or stem extensions.

Carbonfiberboy 

There are a zillion gravel bikes now. Why not think about a bike which has dimensions which please you more? When you input your dimensions into the bike fit calculator, you presumably got an effective top tube length. Go by that when you evaluate candidate bikes, not the "size." ETT is the one dimension that's got to work for you because suitable stems won't vary that much in length, while the saddle goes up and down a good bit.

SkipII

This is tremendously helpful/ Thanks for helping;ping out a newbie to all this.

I am 67 years old and, while note exactly an anatomical fire hydrant, I do lack some flexibility. I worry now that the Poseiden, which by many measures is a great value in a starter gravel bike, might be a real stretch. I am 5'7" with a 30" inseam and they said the Small frame would work. Probably too late to cancel the order (they ar4e shipping this week) so I'll just have ot see how it goes. I'm sure I'll do some stem work when I get it, and your post helps provided some guidance there.

SkipII

I've seen some bike size calculators, but not one that resolves to ETT. Can you offer one?

Carbonfiberboy 

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...ulatorBike.jsp

sloppy12

If the drop bars don't work just switch to some alt bars. I think a Small would be the frame you want in Poseidon X from all I have seen.

TiHabanero

When our shop first started pro fitting services we had a big demand from riders to get their positions more upright on older bikes. This was before endurance geometry, gravel bikes and the like existed. What we quickly learned was that although a "fit" could be obtained, it was far, far less than ideal and ultimately led to a new bike with correct tube lengths for the rider. I strongly suggest returning the bike to the vendor and focus on an endurance road bike or a road hybrid bike from a bike shop where they can properly size you, or better yet, professionally fit you to a machine. A sows ear can be dressed up to feel like a silk purse, but in short order it will reveal its true identity.

jay1680

Something like a Jones Bar will help a lot if you find that can not get upright enough with a drop bar. You may need to change shifters and brake levers but for me it was worth it. 69 and bike about 200 km per week.

SkipII

I don't doubt you are right about someone ultimately getting to a proper fit if they ride enough and have enough money to do so. The fact is, fitting to your level of precision is a new concept and certaimly is matching the meteoric rise in prices. People have been riding standard frame sizes and "fittings" for decades. It is just the evolution of the sport that now places such emphasis on it. I can't return the bike (bought on-line) and the mods I've made so far (recommended by others above) have made it far more comfortable for what I will be doing (road and occasional gravel path). Bike shops in my area, by the way, have nothing in stock less than $3,500, so that is way out of my consideration as a new rider.

marty.rheaume

I know this is an old post, but I'll add this for others who are searching the topic.

I'm a similar size to you and I just received my Poseidon X in the mail. For all the talk about how aggressive the geometry is, it's not that way for me at all. I do have stumpy little legs so the seat is pretty low on my small. The seat post is buried pretty far down, even the number markings are a couple centimeters into the frame. With the upward angled stem, I find my posture to be pretty upright. I haven't been able to actually ride it yet because Michigan is frickin frigid in January and the roads are almost always icy or muddy.

There's no way a medium would've fit me. Even with the small, I basically have no stand over clearance.