elcruxio

But have you ever worn through a rim? Good rims are expensive. Or rather, good light rims are expensive. Ryde rims are cheap enough to be almost free but they're also incredibly heavy (and yet my next touring wheels will have ryde andra's).

A new rim every two or so years? Pass... Even if one uses cheap rims the rebuilding is a hassle. And with expensive rims the costs start adding up.

350htrr

I too still hold the same opinion as 11+ years ago... Discs are "superior in every way" to rim brakes, I can think of no parameter that rims are better than discs for sure, the only thing they are even close to the same is that they are both meant for stopping,...

Tourist in MSN

A friend of mine thinks that Koolstop Salmon brake pads reduce rim wear. I put those on one of my bikes when I built it up, that rim shows very little wear so far.

djb

this, and always cleaning rims and pads after rain riding. Checking pads for embedded bits too .

but dirt riding with downhills and rain is hard to avoid.

So yes, I agree. And I like less finger pressure for strong braking with disc.

Trevtassie

To get to the same point as I was at with rim brakes, same stopping power and mostly no overheating I've needed to go to a 203mm front disc on my Troll. There are a few specific times when discs have sucked for heavily loaded touring, going down a long steep gravel dusted road where pulse braking wasn't possible because of lack of traction, also with bears so stopping to let them cool down wasn't possible either. Same with going down a super steep hill with lots of pedestrians so need to go constantly slow, disc went blue.
Bit of a PITA when travelling, have to take it off the wheel and tape it to the box. The rear disc on the Rohloff is even fiddlier, have to take the gear shifting box off to get the disc off.

robow

Agree, that's another reason I like my salmons !

cyccommute 

Yes, I’ve worn through a couple of rims...as in 2 or 3. That’s over 40 years of riding and hundreds of wheels. I’ve lost more rims to cracked eyelets than to wear. It’s a non-issue. Nor do I use cheap rims. Nor do I use overly heavy rims. I generally plan wheels around the lightest rims I can find but wear is seldom an issue.

How are they “superior in every way”? I have rim brakes and disc brakes. I even have a bike with rim brakes and disc. At no point in 40+ years of riding mountains, mountain bikes in mountains, riding loaded touring bike in the much steeper hills of the eastern US mountains, riding loaded mountain bikes during off-road touring, and riding through 40 winters of commuting have I ever thought “this bike isn’t going to stop!”. The bike I have rim brakes and disc brakes on reacts exactly the same to brake input independent of which lever I’m squeezing. The rim brake doesn’t take any more or any less pressure to stop the bike.

Frankly, I can think of no parameter where disc are better at stopping than a rim brake. Lots of people know diddly about how to actually use their brakes effectively so they blame the tool and not the mechanic.

350htrr

How are they “superior in every way”? I have rim brakes and disc brakes. I even have a bike with rim brakes and disc. At no point in 40+ years of riding mountains, mountain bikes in mountains, riding loaded touring bike in the much steeper hills of the eastern US mountains, riding loaded mountain bikes during off-road touring, and riding through 40 winters of commuting have I ever thought “this bike isn’t going to stop!”. The bike I have rim brakes and disc brakes on reacts exactly the same to brake input independent of which lever I’m squeezing. The rim brake doesn’t take any more or any less pressure to stop the bike.

Frankly, I can think of no parameter where disc are better at stopping than a rim brake. Lots of people know diddly about how to actually use their brakes effectively so they blame the tool and not the mechanic.[/QUOTE]

Well now... I guess it would 'depend on what you expect, what you want, what you demand' , of a brake system... For the casual rider, the difference is... Negligible.... It's that simple, unless it rains, ( Oh Oh, I am squeezing the lever as hard as I can and the bike is NOT slowing down as good as I was expecting) or it snows, ( and the brakes are frozen), or when overloaded, and (going too fast an a too long of a downhill)... Not to mention the disc brakes "feel",... the disc brakes "consistency" ... the disc brakes "controllability",... with a single finger"... ... At least, it is so, with my disc brake system...

NOW, there maybe, are a lot of crappy disc brake out there... So, what is the answer,...??? Buy, quality hydraulic discs brakes, using dot3 brake fluid, it;;s that simple... IMO, after owning nothing but disc brakes for the last 20+ years... I would NOT buy anything without disc brakes... again JMO as to the differences I have experienced... , and what they are worth... To Me...

robow

Stuart, I don't mean to interrupt your ongoing discussion but have you ever used any of the newer compressionless brake housing available on any brakes such as V's, mini V's, canti's or even mech disks ? Does it really offer much if any benefit for the significant additional cost in your opinion ? Thanks

Trevtassie

Yes, makes a big difference, mainly with cable discs and to a certain extent high end rim brakes. Low end rim brakes, not so much, the arms will flex before the cable compresses

djb

When I got my Troll x years ago, tore it down to frame and rebuilt with drop bars, I had to get longer housings, and asked my lbs for compressionless stuff, so I assume this is what I have. I am very happy with the braking and finger pressure required, and figure the housing is part of the equation.

I'd have to look at it to know what brand it is.

JaccoW

+1 on compressionless housing. It also makes a huge difference on most brakes but especially bigger drum brakes.

As for rim brakes vs. discs, I have little experience with discs but I have certainly had rim brakes become ineffective in the rain especially if it has been dry the weeks before.
In dry conditions both can work just as well but rim brakes do require more maintenance. And while I love tinkering, some things should just work.

Tourist in MSN

If it is much less flexible than the cables you have on other bikes, it is compressionless.

saddlesores

stopping power seems about the same if set up properly.
big advantage to disk brakes is not getting clogged
with mud as easily....

https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/mud...ud-jpg.964896/

cyccommute 

I’m not a “casual rider”. A “casual rider” doesn’t do 50 mph descents on loaded touring bikes. A “casual rider” doesn’t do 40 winters of commuting. I’ve ridden in pouring rain at 50 mph on loaded touring bikes downhill with only cantilever brakes. I’ve ridden down rough fast mountain bike trails in rain with only cantilever brakes. I’ve ridden home in ice storms with only cantilever brakes. I started mountain biking in 1985 when all we had was cantilever brakes and the brakes I had on those early bikes were not an impediment to riding most of the same trails that people ride today. The reason I use “most” is because lots and lots of trails have been built in the intervening years and I haven’t had a chance to try all of them...yet.

I, too, demand consistency from all my brakes. Brakes should slow a bike a little or a lot depending on how much lever force is input into the calipers. I have yet to run across a quality brake that doesn’t provide consistent performance...wait! I’ll dial that comment back a little. The only brake that was completely inconsistent was hydraulic brakes which I found to be grabby, touchy, and completely lacking in any kind of “consistency”. I have very good brakes on every bike I own...whether those are disc or rim...but not one of them is hydraulic. All my bikes...whether disc or rim...slow and stop when I need them to in exactly the same manner. If they didn’t, I’d change the brakes to something that will do the job. I just don’t consider discs to be the “be all and end all” of bicycle braking technology.

djb

thanks, I probably went though this when I did all this but have forgotten, will compare housings just to see.

cyccommute 

No, I haven’t tried them. But I don’t find that the braking performance of any of the brakes I use...cantilever, dual pivot side pulls, mechanical disc, or linear brakes...are suffering in terms of performance. My bikes stop when and where I need the to stop in every condition and situation I’ve put them through.

To be clear, I use a lot of strategy when braking...even in emergency situations. I will use brakes in corners but I go very easy when doing so. Any serious deceleration is going to be done before the corner. The tighter the corner and the looser the surface, the more I brake before entering the corner. I don’t brake too much when going through a rock garden off-road...that’s a good way of ending eating a lot of dirt. Same if I have to hit a pothole that I can’t avoid. I get off the back of the saddle every time I brake, no matter if the road is smooth and flat or steep and rocky. Generally, braking should be done where the road or trail is smooth and straight rather than in the rough, twisty bits.

Tourist in MSN

I think that compressionless brake housings are most important on longer cable runs with full length housings. And moving the brake unit for discs to near the rear dropouts makes the rear a really long cable run where rim brakes have a shorter cable run . I used compressionless on my Lynskey rear because TRP specifically recommended that on the Spyre brake instructions. (Yes, I know, real men do not read instructions, sorry.)

And my Lynskey is new enough that they built the frame so that it could use hydraulic or cable and that means that the cable run lacks cable stops on the frame tubing, so full length housing has to be used. On frames where there are cable stops, since frame tubing is essentially compressionless, I think compressionless housing is less important with the short housing runs.

My expedition bike has full length housing everywhere to prevent mud and road grime from messing up the cables. That bike has rim brakes, but my rear brake is a bit spongey due to the length of extra cable housing along the top tube. That bike would probably benefit from compressionless cable.

My road bike has compressionless, but quite frankly I can't tell the difference in how compressionless and regular cable housing compares on the front rim brakes, the housing is so short on those brakes that any housing compression on normal cables on my other bikes with normal cables would be minimal.

staehpj1

I hate zombie threads coming back! Especially when I have changed my mind on the topic.

FWIW, I thought disks were overkill back then and I love them now. Most of my bikes do not have them, but that is because they are old and I am too cheap to replace them. I love the hydraulic disks on my newest MTB. That said the rim brakes on my other bikes all work fine. I hate replacing worn out rims though and have needed to do so on half of the bikes that I was riding when this thread was started. Also I have found the disks require less attention and work a little better.

Tourist in MSN

My folding bike has full length cable housing for all purposes. You would think that the cable runs would be short because a folding bike is small, but the cable runs are actually quite long due to the folding mechanism. I need tandem length cables for the rear derailleur. I have a 3 speed IGH (Sram Dual Drive) on that bike, thus a second gearing cable with full length housing to the rear dropout for that too.

Bike has rim brakes. I have regular (not long cable pull) brake levers, the levers you would typically use on canti or sidepull brakes. But I have mini V brakes on that bike and do not use travel agents. The long cable runs with normal cable housing means that I have a very spongey brake feel, but with the mini V brakes it takes very little lever effort to grip the rims pretty hard. So, I have to be careful when braking on that bike. I initially tried canti brakes on the front but switched to mini V later.

The braking would definitely be improved on that bike with compressionless, BUT I think that the folding mechanism might not play well with a cable housing that is that stiff. So, I will be sticking with the cable I have. The way it is, each time I fold and unfold it, I have to manualy try to straighten out the kinks in the rear cables.






This bike is over a decade old, they switched to disc several years ago.

fooferdoggie 

well you had the wrong hydraulic brakes. there is a big difference between brands and models. my magura's take a fair amount of effort to get the max out of them but they are always consistent. my shimano's are touchy but they only take 1 finger to stop with and you get used to it. but they are consistent till the pads are pretty much worn out. the brake pull hardly charges at all through the pads life. in the rain they are great.

djb

the bold bit pretty much sums up the Troll. Full length , but what you say about the shorter lengths kinda makes sense.

djb

jeez louise, a crotchety old guy changing his mind, who wuda thunk !?
I think both your and my take on discs now is a pretty average take on the whole thing, even from riders who are ok with how rim brakes work, but acknowledge the advantages of discs. I'm just happier to be able to dump speed effectively with less finger pressure, so descents are safer and more relaxing for me.

djb

ha, even Froomie aint happy

https://cyclingmagazine.ca/uncategor...le-moment-yet/

I do have to say that I like my old BB7s in that I can adjust each pad and make sure there's enough clearance to never have rub (when the caliper is aligned and I use my qr well and line things up well--not hard to do, just saying)

Russ Roth

I thought no disc for me on my touring bike but honestly their consistency on my mtb and gravel bike has changed that. My kids stopped fine with rim brakes on their first mtb, were happier with the cable discs on their current bikes but loved the upgrade to a basic shimano hydraulic system. They went from 3 finger squeezes with rim, 2 finger with cable and just use a finger with hydraulic and never struggle to scrub speed. Rim brakes do work fine but hydraulic brakes just work better.