Schwinn Paramount vs Trek Domane
#51
Crawlin' up, flyin' down
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Democratic Peoples' Republic of Berkeley
Posts: 5,699
Bikes: 1967 Paramount; 1982-ish Ron Cooper; 1978 Eisentraut "A"; two mid-1960s Cinelli Speciale Corsas; and others in various stages of non-rideability.
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1047 Post(s)
Liked 2,589 Times
in
1,081 Posts
Likes For bikingshearer:
#52
Thrifty Bill
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mountains of Western NC
Posts: 23,537
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue X2, 88 Cimarron LE, 1975 Sekai 4000 Professional, 73 Paramount, plus more
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1242 Post(s)
Liked 986 Times
in
636 Posts
Just as silly as reducing the latest Trek to nothing but plastic and batteries.
Yes an 1966 Schwinn is an interesting time capsule. But who in their right mind would choose to ride it over a top end modern bike for a serious ride or multi day event. It always comes back to this, these old bikes are not being destroyed or thrown out but rather parked and not ridden and that is for a reason. Much like the examples you gave, historically interesting but not relevant to modern usage.
Yes an 1966 Schwinn is an interesting time capsule. But who in their right mind would choose to ride it over a top end modern bike for a serious ride or multi day event. It always comes back to this, these old bikes are not being destroyed or thrown out but rather parked and not ridden and that is for a reason. Much like the examples you gave, historically interesting but not relevant to modern usage.
Speaking about vintage value, I had a first printing Atlas Shrugged, with no dust jacket. Sold for $300. So apparently there is still interest in old stuff.
Most old bikes I find are not parked and ridden due to performance or capability issues, Instead, they are similar to much exercise equipment, bought for good intentions and then never used. Newish bikes sit idle too.
Likes For wrk101:
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked 921 Times
in
518 Posts
THe only reason ANY of them have lasted is because they were not subject to hard use, probably because the components were so fragile that the wheels would normally break before the frame saw any significant stress. People were conditioned to treat their racing bikes as fragile thoroughbreds.
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked 921 Times
in
518 Posts
Many many failures. Were you working in the industry in the 80s and 90s? Lightweight steel bikes were fragile and failuires were common. Failure rates are much lower with modern aluminum and carbon, and the expectation of durability, and hence the amount of abuse they see, has gone up. Why do you think the steel bikes currently sold as suitable for abusive use are 6 lb frames and not the 3.5 or 4 lb frames used in racing BITD?
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 269 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4533 Post(s)
Liked 6,440 Times
in
3,704 Posts
Most of my riding is in the recreational/exercise category. As such, top speed and performance is less important, but easy gearing is.
Speaking about vintage value, I had a first printing Atlas Shrugged, with no dust jacket. Sold for $300. So apparently there is still interest in old stuff.
Most old bikes I find are not parked and ridden due to performance or capability issues, Instead, they are similar to much exercise equipment, bought for good intentions and then never used. Newish bikes sit idle too.
Speaking about vintage value, I had a first printing Atlas Shrugged, with no dust jacket. Sold for $300. So apparently there is still interest in old stuff.
Most old bikes I find are not parked and ridden due to performance or capability issues, Instead, they are similar to much exercise equipment, bought for good intentions and then never used. Newish bikes sit idle too.
Likes For merziac:
#56
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,996
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 675 Post(s)
Liked 994 Times
in
661 Posts
True and that is when the quality of the batteries is optimal, andsomebatteries even four quartz watches aren't to be found anymore case ofthe Omega Megaquartz and Rolex Oysterquartz. Once electronics are outdated, they are outdated.
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,888
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,995 Times
in
1,812 Posts
THe only reason ANY of them have lasted is because they were not subject to hard use, probably because the components were so fragile that the wheels would normally break before the frame saw any significant stress. People were conditioned to treat their racing bikes as fragile thoroughbreds.
Likes For smd4:
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Visalia, CA
Posts: 2,249
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 981 Post(s)
Liked 1,844 Times
in
609 Posts
Last year I was riding strong because I had the opportunity to do a few more thousand miles than any year since I was first in college. I could get out on my 1979 Mercian 10-speed and do a 75-mile ride at about 18mph average. I bought myself a fancy 2013 Look 675 with Ultegra and got out to do 130 miles one day at 19mph average. This was around the same time of year and on similar terrain. My stance is slightly more aggressive on the 675 and there was a 10-pound weight difference between the two bikes fully loaded (18 lbs vs 28 lbs), plus I had lovely Continental 700x25mm tires on the 675 and generic 27" tires on the Mercian.
Considering I wasn't out sprinting or climbing much on such rides, I think that slight benefits from aerodynamics, weight difference and tire size/pressure probably accounted for about 95% of the performance differences between the two bikes. Almost all of those factors could have been negated if I were on a racier vintage bicycle than the Mercian (as equipped).
The Look isn't even that uncomfortable except that I refuse to put a two-pound Brooks saddle on a modern bike like that, so my butt suffers a bit despite my use of a very plush Selle Italia Flite.
-Gregory
Considering I wasn't out sprinting or climbing much on such rides, I think that slight benefits from aerodynamics, weight difference and tire size/pressure probably accounted for about 95% of the performance differences between the two bikes. Almost all of those factors could have been negated if I were on a racier vintage bicycle than the Mercian (as equipped).
The Look isn't even that uncomfortable except that I refuse to put a two-pound Brooks saddle on a modern bike like that, so my butt suffers a bit despite my use of a very plush Selle Italia Flite.
-Gregory
#59
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,996
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 675 Post(s)
Liked 994 Times
in
661 Posts
Many many failures. Were you working in the industry in the 80s and 90s? Lightweight steel bikes were fragile and failuires were common. Failure rates are much lower with modern aluminum and carbon, and the expectation of durability, and hence the amount of abuse they see, has gone up. Why do you think the steel bikes currently sold as suitable for abusive use are 6 lb frames and not the 3.5 or 4 lb frames used in racing BITD?
Likes For georges1:
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 269 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4533 Post(s)
Liked 6,440 Times
in
3,704 Posts
So why are the Paramounts and their peers rare and sought after? By your estimation, they could have stopped making them after a few production runs and the cycling world just passed around the ones that were made into infinity.
THe only reason ANY of them have lasted is because they were not subject to hard use, probably because the components were so fragile that the wheels would normally break before the frame saw any significant stress. People were conditioned to treat their racing bikes as fragile thoroughbreds.
THe only reason ANY of them have lasted is because they were not subject to hard use, probably because the components were so fragile that the wheels would normally break before the frame saw any significant stress. People were conditioned to treat their racing bikes as fragile thoroughbreds.
100,000's if not millions of these frames live to tell the tale and are still going strong, we here are proof of that and we're only one of the many large groups.
Many were beat to death even by members here and are still going strong.
This all plays out here everyday when someone finds one that has been languishing, may be cracked, broken, rusty or not and brings it back to life and the fight where they do just fine.
Nevermind the huge amount that have never faltered after decades so far.
Fragile is relative, many of these were ridden by very hard men for 10's of 1000's of miles without any failures, many of the ones that did fail were ridden very hard, put away wet and stewed in their own juices for their whole life.
Many of them are still going strong despite it.
Likes For merziac:
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,888
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,995 Times
in
1,812 Posts
I don't think anyone is arguing that modern bikes don't have more bells and whistles (although the Mercian does have at least a bell ). But the classic bikes just have more...class.
Likes For smd4:
#62
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,996
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 675 Post(s)
Liked 994 Times
in
661 Posts
Old steel bikes are sought after because they are durable , comfy and are more lively in terms of ride compared to a carbon one. The 753's an 853's framed Paramounts are some of the finest Paramount bikes ever made including those with the 531 frame. The Raleigh SBDU models could be considered as rivals of the Paramount. I have never had the chance to try a Paramount but I know that quality wise they represent among the highest quality of craftsmanship regarding an american made bike.
Last edited by georges1; 04-10-23 at 10:16 AM.
#63
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,996
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 675 Post(s)
Liked 994 Times
in
661 Posts
BS
100,000's if not millions of these frames live to tell the tale and are still going strong, we here are proof of that and we're only one of the many large groups.
Many were beat to death even by members here and are still going strong.
This all plays out here everyday when someone finds one that has been languishing, may be cracked, broken, rusty or not and brings it back to life and the fight where they do just fine.
Nevermind the huge amount that have never faltered after decades so far.
Fragile is relative, many of these were ridden by very hard men for 10's of 1000's of miles without any failures, many of the ones that did fail were ridden very hard, put away wet and stewed in their own juices for their whole life.
Many of them are still going strong despite it.
100,000's if not millions of these frames live to tell the tale and are still going strong, we here are proof of that and we're only one of the many large groups.
Many were beat to death even by members here and are still going strong.
This all plays out here everyday when someone finds one that has been languishing, may be cracked, broken, rusty or not and brings it back to life and the fight where they do just fine.
Nevermind the huge amount that have never faltered after decades so far.
Fragile is relative, many of these were ridden by very hard men for 10's of 1000's of miles without any failures, many of the ones that did fail were ridden very hard, put away wet and stewed in their own juices for their whole life.
Many of them are still going strong despite it.
Likes For georges1:
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 1,835
Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400T, 1977 Trek TX900, 1982 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1991 Waterford PDG OS Paramount, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 604 Post(s)
Liked 1,064 Times
in
535 Posts
Just curious, how long do the batteries last on the D12 system, and how many will I go through in 57 years. I have power tools less than 10 years old, that I can no longer find batteries for. That will never happen with D12 right?
Tim
Tim
Likes For tkamd73:
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 269 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4533 Post(s)
Liked 6,440 Times
in
3,704 Posts
Last year I was riding strong because I had the opportunity to do a few more thousand miles than any year since I was first in college. I could get out on my 1979 Mercian 10-speed and do a 75-mile ride at about 18mph average. I bought myself a fancy 2013 Look 675 with Ultegra and got out to do 130 miles one day at 19mph average. This was around the same time of year and on similar terrain. My stance is slightly more aggressive on the 675 and there was a 10-pound weight difference between the two bikes fully loaded (18 lbs vs 28 lbs), plus I had lovely Continental 700x25mm tires on the 675 and generic 27" tires on the Mercian.
Considering I wasn't out sprinting or climbing much on such rides, I think that slight benefits from aerodynamics, weight difference and tire size/pressure probably accounted for about 95% of the performance differences between the two bikes. Almost all of those factors could have been negated if I were on a racier vintage bicycle than the Mercian (as equipped).
The Look isn't even that uncomfortable except that I refuse to put a two-pound Brooks saddle on a modern bike like that, so my butt suffers a bit despite my use of a very plush Selle Italia Flite.
-Gregory
Considering I wasn't out sprinting or climbing much on such rides, I think that slight benefits from aerodynamics, weight difference and tire size/pressure probably accounted for about 95% of the performance differences between the two bikes. Almost all of those factors could have been negated if I were on a racier vintage bicycle than the Mercian (as equipped).
The Look isn't even that uncomfortable except that I refuse to put a two-pound Brooks saddle on a modern bike like that, so my butt suffers a bit despite my use of a very plush Selle Italia Flite.
-Gregory
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 269 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4533 Post(s)
Liked 6,440 Times
in
3,704 Posts
Likes For merziac:
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,681
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1256 Post(s)
Liked 1,344 Times
in
687 Posts
I incorrectly weighed into the C&V subforum to debate the premise that modern bikes are inferior to vintage ones for the sport of cycling; I was on a fool's errand. Much like jumping into a Catholic forum defending Judaism would be irrational, nothing positive would come from that kind of interaction, especially on an online forum.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 04-10-23 at 12:57 PM.
#68
Steel80's
If your only criteria is speed, I suppose the Domane wins. But that's not why most of us are here in this sub-forum.
I've proven that to myself, I'm about 1/2 mph faster on my modern steel bike than my vintage Schwinn Peloton. I've been through it all with trying to upgrade vintage- from not enough gears, to going to brifters, carbon parts, etc.. I finally landed on modern 10 speed, rim brake, steel frame, carbon fork & seatpost, 19# bike, I'm good. Only thing I can think would be better is a pretty frame with an "O" or an "i" at the end of the name.
Every time I shop for a new bike, though- I can't bring myself to spend over $5000 for a carbon bike that will be obsolete or broken in 5 years.
Last Fall, I went on a shopping safari- try to find a bike that doesn't have electronic shifting and disk brakes! And half the carbon bikes are downright uncomfortable on every bump.
I tried a Trek Emonda, leftover team replica. $12K bike, I could have had for $7K. There's a tip-off right there! Internal hydraulics, bottom bracket that needs annual service (the frame is the bearing race!), no adjustment on the integral aero stem, etc. I enjoyed the test ride, but I realized it wasn't for me.
I've proven that to myself, I'm about 1/2 mph faster on my modern steel bike than my vintage Schwinn Peloton. I've been through it all with trying to upgrade vintage- from not enough gears, to going to brifters, carbon parts, etc.. I finally landed on modern 10 speed, rim brake, steel frame, carbon fork & seatpost, 19# bike, I'm good. Only thing I can think would be better is a pretty frame with an "O" or an "i" at the end of the name.
Every time I shop for a new bike, though- I can't bring myself to spend over $5000 for a carbon bike that will be obsolete or broken in 5 years.
Last Fall, I went on a shopping safari- try to find a bike that doesn't have electronic shifting and disk brakes! And half the carbon bikes are downright uncomfortable on every bump.
I tried a Trek Emonda, leftover team replica. $12K bike, I could have had for $7K. There's a tip-off right there! Internal hydraulics, bottom bracket that needs annual service (the frame is the bearing race!), no adjustment on the integral aero stem, etc. I enjoyed the test ride, but I realized it wasn't for me.
Likes For vinfix:
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,439
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5892 Post(s)
Liked 3,479 Times
in
2,081 Posts
Not really. Some of the comments above are fairly close to being equivalent to walking into a C&W bar and shouting out during a lull in the music, "Country music SUCKS - blues/jazz/hard rock/rap (pick any of these) is WAY better!"
If someone does that, it shouldn't be a surprise when some regulars at the bar take offense and yell back.
Anyone can ride whatever they like; I've got no problem with that. I'll do the same.
Just don't tell me what I'm riding is junk - and that your bike is way better - if our paths cross while riding. I'll extend the same courtesy.
If someone does that, it shouldn't be a surprise when some regulars at the bar take offense and yell back.
Anyone can ride whatever they like; I've got no problem with that. I'll do the same.
Just don't tell me what I'm riding is junk - and that your bike is way better - if our paths cross while riding. I'll extend the same courtesy.
Likes For bikemig:
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,483
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2544 Post(s)
Liked 3,021 Times
in
1,720 Posts
Columbus Max, Nemo, Foco,Ultra Foco,Genius, Neuron and EL, Reynolds 631,853,953 and725 as well as the Dedacciai DR Zero and DR Zero Uno have present been since 90's. Depends which steels you are talking about, I have never heard about a 531 competition or professional , a 753 or an Excell ul os frame failing as well. I am interested what series of tubes are supposedly fragile. With a carbon frame (used or new) when you crash, you crash ,no repairs possible and you throw the frame in the dustbin. Steel is repairable, carbon isn't.
I remember a rep for a high-end distributor telling us that we should buy some of his newest San Rensho frames, because, as he explained, they'd fixed the problem with down tube failures at the head tube lug by increasing the butting thickness there, and then, when the other end of the tube started cracking at the bottom bracket shell, they increased the butting there, and then finally increased the chainstay thickness, first at the front and then at the back.
That's just a glimpse into the very different world of distributors and manufacturers, where anecdotal evidence that is reported by a bike owner here and there as evidence of the immortality of steel frames is replaced by real numbers---i.e., how many frames they have to replace under warranty.
Another rep, for Trek this time, told me, when I asked him in the early '90s what effect the recent introduction of their aluminum frames had had on business, "We're saving a lot of money, because we're getting far fewer warranty claims that we did with the steel frames."
I'm sure, though, that it's true that the frames built with high-end steel in the '90s and 2000s will last a long time. Steel bikes represent a very small slice of the already small high-end market, and, of the few in that slice that see anything like significant mileage, they're not being raced---and it's racing that reveals frame weaknesses. (Remember that 12 High-End Frames fatigue test posted on the Sheldon Brown site: unlike the Trek carbon bike and two of the aluminum bikes, all of the steel frames that were subjected to high numbers of repeated stresses failed, sooner or later. Mostly sooner.)
Plus, non-racers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, who represent the majority of that tiny minority buying cutting-edge steel bikes, often have a number of bikes to rotate through, and do so on a regular basis. Ridden that way, sure, any frame is likely to last effectively forever.
Likes For Trakhak:
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,888
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,995 Times
in
1,812 Posts
You clearly didn't work in a bike store in the '70s, '80s, or '90s. Failures in steel racing bikes weren't exactly common, but even in the backwater shops north of Baltimore where I worked in the '80s and '90s, we saw our share of non-crashed bikes with cracks at the bottom bracket or in a seatstay or chainstay at the fork end or at the seat cluster.
#72
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,996
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 675 Post(s)
Liked 994 Times
in
661 Posts
You clearly didn't work in a bike store in the '70s, '80s, or '90s. Failures in steel racing bikes weren't exactly common, but even in the backwater shops north of Baltimore where I worked in the '80s and '90s, we saw our share of non-crashed bikes with cracks at the bottom bracket or in a seatstay or chainstay at the fork end or at the seat cluster.
I remember a rep for a high-end distributor telling us that we should buy some of his newest San Rensho frames, because, as he explained, they'd fixed the problem with down tube failures at the head tube lug by increasing the butting thickness there, and then, when the other end of the tube started cracking at the bottom bracket shell, they increased the butting there, and then finally increased the chainstay thickness, first at the front and then at the back.
That's just a glimpse into the very different world of distributors and manufacturers, where anecdotal evidence that is reported by a bike owner here and there as evidence of the immortality of steel frames is replaced by real numbers---i.e., how many frames they have to replace under warranty.
Another rep, for Trek this time, told me, when I asked him in the early '90s what effect the recent introduction of their aluminum frames had had on business, "We're saving a lot of money, because we're getting far fewer warranty claims that we did with the steel frames."
I'm sure, though, that it's true that the frames built with high-end steel in the '90s and 2000s will last a long time. Steel bikes represent a very small slice of the already small high-end market, and, of the few in that slice that see anything like significant mileage, they're not being raced---and it's racing that reveals frame weaknesses. (Remember that 12 High-End Frames fatigue test posted on the Sheldon Brown site: unlike the Trek carbon bike and two of the aluminum bikes, all of the steel frames that were subjected to high numbers of repeated stresses failed, sooner or later. Mostly sooner.)
Plus, non-racers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, who represent the majority of that tiny minority buying cutting-edge steel bikes, often have a number of bikes to rotate through, and do so on a regular basis. Ridden that way, sure, any frame is likely to last effectively forever.
I remember a rep for a high-end distributor telling us that we should buy some of his newest San Rensho frames, because, as he explained, they'd fixed the problem with down tube failures at the head tube lug by increasing the butting thickness there, and then, when the other end of the tube started cracking at the bottom bracket shell, they increased the butting there, and then finally increased the chainstay thickness, first at the front and then at the back.
That's just a glimpse into the very different world of distributors and manufacturers, where anecdotal evidence that is reported by a bike owner here and there as evidence of the immortality of steel frames is replaced by real numbers---i.e., how many frames they have to replace under warranty.
Another rep, for Trek this time, told me, when I asked him in the early '90s what effect the recent introduction of their aluminum frames had had on business, "We're saving a lot of money, because we're getting far fewer warranty claims that we did with the steel frames."
I'm sure, though, that it's true that the frames built with high-end steel in the '90s and 2000s will last a long time. Steel bikes represent a very small slice of the already small high-end market, and, of the few in that slice that see anything like significant mileage, they're not being raced---and it's racing that reveals frame weaknesses. (Remember that 12 High-End Frames fatigue test posted on the Sheldon Brown site: unlike the Trek carbon bike and two of the aluminum bikes, all of the steel frames that were subjected to high numbers of repeated stresses failed, sooner or later. Mostly sooner.)
Plus, non-racers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, who represent the majority of that tiny minority buying cutting-edge steel bikes, often have a number of bikes to rotate through, and do so on a regular basis. Ridden that way, sure, any frame is likely to last effectively forever.
Last edited by georges1; 04-10-23 at 02:00 PM.
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,070
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3018 Post(s)
Liked 3,845 Times
in
1,418 Posts
I incorrectly weighed into the C&V subforum to debate the premise that modern bikes are inferior to vintage ones for the sport of cycling; I was on a fool's errand. Much like jumping into a Catholic forum defending Judaism would be irrational, nothing positive would come from that kind of interaction, especially on an online forum.
It is hard to believe that any one thinks its about the bike. Bartali on his first team bike in 1934, 49 up front, 16/18/20 in the back and serious contortions to shift, would drop you in your prime on any bike today like a bag of wet sand. Your humiliation would be epic. Kind of like now. But go ahead, keep on telling yourself it is about the bike. The world needs a good patsy.
Likes For iab:
#74
Senior Member
https://bikerumor.com/585g-specializ...k-catching-it/
Not my cup of tea. I'm not a competitive amateur or pro cyclist; I just ride to please myself and get some exercise. But if it "floats yer boat" and you have the cash, then go for it if you like.
Likes For Hondo6:
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Visalia, CA
Posts: 2,249
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 981 Post(s)
Liked 1,844 Times
in
609 Posts
Incorrect. And again, shows astonishing ignorance.
It is hard to believe that any one thinks its about the bike. Bartali on his first team bike in 1934, 49 up front, 16/18/20 in the back and serious contortions to shift, would drop you in your prime on any bike today like a bag of wet sand. Your humiliation would be epic. Kind of like now. But go ahead, keep on telling yourself it is about the bike. The world needs a good patsy.
It is hard to believe that any one thinks its about the bike. Bartali on his first team bike in 1934, 49 up front, 16/18/20 in the back and serious contortions to shift, would drop you in your prime on any bike today like a bag of wet sand. Your humiliation would be epic. Kind of like now. But go ahead, keep on telling yourself it is about the bike. The world needs a good patsy.
-Gregory