kickstart

If making the situation safer is really the primary goal then blinding others is counter productive.
The two reasonable solutions are acquire a properly engineered light, and don't outride your headlight, or in other words, adjust your speed to match conditions.

PaulRivers

Yeah, the helmet is definitely the most annoying place to put it. It's convenient for you, annoying for oncoming riders.

Absolute darkness counterintuitively needs less light than other lighting, like dark mixed with badly spaced street lights, fyi.

I definitely understand that you massively upgrade your light and can see a lot more, though. I did exactly the same thing years ago - and also had people on the trail angrily yell at me years ago as well, so now I don't ride on the trails with those lights.

So of course I'm doing what any reasonable person would do: asking the internet's opinion! How would you handle this? I don't want to give up the fantastic visibility I've got now, I just don't want to blind people either. Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

What I specifically did is buy a light designed with a cutoff.

This pic does a decent job illustrating how it works (it works like car headlight on low beam):


Notice how the light hits the ground, but doesn't hit the guys face.

Compared to a medium powered bike light, in my experience a shaped beam is much better. It would take another essay to list all the reasons, but the main thing is that it creates an even beam pattern with no hotspot so your eyes aren't adjust to a bright spot and getting less light, and it shapes the light as to light up the pavement far away as evenly as the pavement near the bike. In my opinion, it's the best option for lighting up the road (with the maximum distance) in a bike light that doesn't blind other people.

But, compared to a high output, wide beam, blinding light, it does have some drawbacks - you can't see off to the side of the trail as well mainly. It's not as much of "riding in daylight" feeling. But I also feel that on an unlit MUP, riding with "like the sun" lights is very offensive both to other trail users, and specifically to other oncoming riders. Where I am there are a lot of oncoming riders.

If there are only a few other trail users where you are, you could use both kinds of lights, then turn off the "like the sun" one when you see another rider / trail user. The shaped beam light would provide plenty of light while passing them. I'll note that I ride only with shaped beam lights, I don't find the hassle of having a second light worth it. At the same time, a wide beam light would be nice to illuminating animals beside the trail - deer, rabbits, stuff like that. Can't say I've ever had a van drive down the bike trail, lol.

The two battery powered shaped beam lights that are good are the Phillips Saferide, and the Busch and Mueller Ixon IQ Premium. (The "premium" part is important - their was a light before it without the premium that is a much dimmer and less useful light).

For my commuter I use a dynamo hub - it's a hub that generates a small amount of electricity while you ride to power a light. They have advantages over battery lights - unlimited power and no battery issues like charging, batteries getting old, no reduced capacity in the cold, etc - but they also cost more. It was worth it for me, though the battery versions work fine to. For dynamo lights it's between the Cyo Premium and the Schmidt Edelux II. Both of these are also shaped beams -


It does look like that on a dark road in a forest with no other light, it's not quite that bright on a road with mixed lighting like cars headlights, but it's enough light for both.

PaulRivers

noglider is a calm and considerate poster, moreso then myself, frankly. Rather than starting a contentious debate, why don't you try having someone else turn on your lights and ride towards yourself on the trail?

That's what I did, and I realized why the light pissed off other trail users so much, no matter how much I personally enjoyed putting a wide angle 1600 lumen (actual) light output in front of me. It's very nice - I used a Light and Motion Seca 900 with a Seca 1400 (on medium) and it's very enjoyable while your on the bike. But god awful if you're a pedestrian on the trail.

Try it yourself and see. I used to be on the opposite side of the fence when I was I started.

noglider 

@jralbert, it seems I mischaracterized what you were doing, and for that I apologize. From your description, somehow, I got the image of you spraying huge amounts of light in a wide swath without regard for how it would come across to others. Now I learn I was wrong. My anger is directed at people who do that, not at you.

jralbert

No hard feelings, and I appreciate the sentiment. We've spoken in the past on this forum and you've always been very cordial. What's interesting to me is how stirred up even calm people seem to get about this; as I alluded to above, I think the "inconsiderate other" reaction provides a fascinating window on what motorists perhaps imagine of us. That said, what I more had in mind in asking the question was a possible technical solution - I've got this thing now, and it works really well for many things, it's just clearly very aggravating to some people in some circumstances, so I wonder if I can't modify it to improve things. A previous poster had mentioned a hood or shield to cut off the upper arc of a low-mounted light; I wonder if I couldn't fabricate something similar to cut the lower arc of the helmet-mounted light. I've already got a fork-crown mounted light to provide foreground illumination, so restricting the helmet-mounted light to distance might be workable. Thanks to everyone who's contributed, both the very technically inclined who have provided some great ideas, and the socially-minded who've made clear that there's an etiquette issue here that reasonable people must not ignore.

noglider 

@jralbert:

kickstart

Keep in mind that partially covering a flashlight type light will produce a cutoff but will also create a dark spot in the beam and still allow the objectional upward glare.

fietsbob

Clever thing about the B&M IQ2 reflector is The LED faces Down and the optics , the angles of reflection, take over putting light on the ground, in an engineered pattern.

no motor?

I'm just curious here as I know we're not going to change each others opinions on the subject, but I am curious about one very important detail you and noglider keep omitting during your frequent and lengthy posts on this subject. You've both gone to considerable expense and put considerable effort into making sure the lights you use on your bicycles don't offend others, and you're posts about your lights often have pictures, sources and maybe even a few charts to back up your preferences. But you never mention any comments you get from the others you've gone to such great lengths to avoid offending. Aren't they grateful for the efforts you've made for them? The lights I use are the lights you despise and find inappropriate, yet it's extremely rare I get a complaint about them. And the few complaints I've received have usually been from people dressed in dark clothes walking on the bike path in the dark. But when people do comment about my lights, they usually say things like "I like your lights", "I wish other bikes had lights like that" "I could see you coming from way back there, you're hard to miss", and the occasional "where can I get lights like that?". Again, I'm just curious, but it seems like if your lights really are as good as they look from the pictures and you're riding around enough people to justify their use it seems like somebody should express their thanks or approval of your lights. And that mentioning these comments would make your assertions that more valid.

Gresp15C

I can't speak for the others, but there was an occasion when my light was aimed above the horizon, and I got "comments" from oncoming cyclists in the form of symbolically putting their hands in front of their eyes as they rode by.

For me, "despise" might be a pretty strong word. There are certainly things to like about being visible from a distance, and flooding an area with light. Whether blinding oncoming cyclists is a problem kinda depends on whether there are any oncoming cyclists to blind. The multi-use asphaltway that I ride on can get pretty crowded.

Rather than say that I despise those lights, I'd say that they are poorly engineered, i.e., designed without consideration for predictable issues that can arise from their use. One reason may be the cost of designing and manufacturing an appropriate housing for the lamps, as lamps continue to get brighter and brighter. Good optical engineering isn't cheap. I suspect that a light could be designed with better beam control, yet with the properties that folks have complimented you on, such as visibility from a distance. Actually I intend to find it out because I possess some optics design skill of my own and am curious about the problem.

kickstart

Perhaps your experiences reflect your efforts to compensate for the shortcomings of the lights you use rather then their actual suitability for road use without the extra care and consideration.

To be honest, "offend" isn't really accurate as thoughtless use of high lumen but poorly engineered lights can cause issues that are not opinions, but well established facts.

noglider 

Negative and positive comments about a stranger's bike lights are rare. It's not something people tend to talk about. But I have received those compliments from people occasionally. Not only that, pedestrians who are poised to jaywalk in front of me reconsider and step back when they see me coming. I can't say for sure it's because of my fancy dancy headlight, but I suspect it is a factor.

PaulRivers

I live in Minneapolis, where their are a LOT of bikers. And a lot of people ride with lights that are more on the dim side and non-offensive. So people don't thank me - but I think because their are so many other people riding so similarly. While many of them are not using lights with a cutoff, they are using lights that are more "be seen" or "only important if I end up under a bridge with no light" level of lighting that's dim.

In contrast, like I said, I got yelled at a few times with my bright lights. To be fair, exactly once some cranky dude tried to yell at me with my cutoff light to. But with my cutoff light that was one weird guy. With my bright wide light it was several people on several different rides, it was also fellow riders in a group ride who would get blinded if they ended up in front of me then tried to look behind them, and a whole lot more people who didn't yell at me but made it obvious that my light was a problem for them - moving over to the side of the trail, stopping, and often shielding their eyes.

The one thing now that you mention it that stands out is that drivers used to always put on their high beams when they'd see me, and now they almost never do.

There's just to many bikers here for someone to notice a light that isn't as annoying. I think. One could do the same thing with a cheap, low output light as well with not annoying people - you just wouldn't get nearly as much visibility and light throw. I think my light blends in with the sea of other lower powered and non-offensive lights, you have to be the one on the bike to appreciate how much better of a job it does at throwing light onto the road.

TallTravel

I've not done that much night riding, but I'm amazed how many cars treat me totally different when I make one small change--turn my 750 lumen front light to flash mode.

Amazing to me.

Gresp15C

Better or worse?

kickstart

When I ran a front flasher during the day I never observed any quantifiable difference in driver behavior. At night it was so freaking annoying if there was any difference it would have been totally offset by the distraction it caused me.

J.C. Koto

no motor?

That's interesting you mention this, I was thinking about how I've had one driver flash their high beams at me after I sent my post, and that was after I noticed how the lights from the later model car where creating enough glare to make it hard for me to see. And I was using a P7 Magicshine with a wide angle lens aimed about 5 feet ahead of me, a 125 lumen? viz 360 and a flashlight with a xml driver and a fading battery. The car lights had superior optics and more lumens than mine, yet still made it harder for me to see.

There aren't that many bicyclists in my area as there are in yours, but most people mention my lights (positively) when they mention anything about me while riding. Comments about isn't it too hot/cold/far/dangerous to ride or about my bright yellow vest or jacket don't happen nearly as much as the comments about my lights.

If I lived in an area with as many bicyclists as you do and I had to change things to avoid annoying others while still being able to see I'd probably use different lights or use mine differently. But until that happens......

PaulRivers

To be clear here, most of what I focus on is that I like shaped beam lights for self serving reasons - I feel that they leave me with more peripheral vision (how with many bike lights you turn them on and cannot see outside the main beam), they do a better job of illuminating the road, and they let me see further down the road. If they made shaped beam lights with all possible power levels (like ones that did 1000-1500 lumens like a car headlamp) it would be even better, right now what they sell seems to be fine for some people (like me) but not high powered enough for other people that perhaps see less well in the dark to begin with.

But a beam cutoff is only on my personal list after those, as a nicety you also get.

There's only a couple of scenarios where I feel like people are being jerks about it:

1. They're riding a high output, wide beam, on an unlit bike trail.

Riding this on a road is different - the car traffic coming towards you is over an entire lane, they have slight tinting on their windshields, they have their own high powered light, and their is a lot of visual light noise around with other vehicles, streetlights, etc.

But on a bike trail the other riders coming towards you (and pedestrians) are right there in the main beam of the light. There's often no other ambient light. Etc etc. I'm not saying you have to go with a dinky powered light, or a shaped beam, but if you're using a 1500 lumen wide beam light and people are yelling at you, getting off the trail when you come by, or shielding their eyes, there's a reason.

2. They're the obnoxious "cars are yelling at me, flashing their lights, and upset at me - but that just means I'm doing something right! Yeah! I'm awesome and it's for my safety! Sweeeet! I'm going to put even brighter lights on!" crowd. They seem to be unable to tell the difference between positive and negative attention, so if they're getting attention it must mean they're so awesome!

Huge difference between "this is so awesome that I can see!" and "this is so awesome that I'm getting attention and pissing people off so much they're stopping and yelling at me!". I'm definitely not saying you or the OP is in the second crowd, but sometimes you get strong negative reactions because those kind of people have been bragging before, sometimes starting off being completely reasonable before descending into a rant about how it's their "right" to be safe and being obnoxious as hell makes them "safer".

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

If I were you and wondering if i was being obnoxious, I would look for more than just people yelling at you. Are people clearing off the path when you come by? Is everyone shielding their eyes as you go past? Are cars turning on their brights far moreso than with a lower powered light? You might look to see how much light is hitting people on their face as you go past from your light.

If not, then I think you're probably fine. I really can't tell you over the internet just from a lumen count whether your light is obnoxious - there are many different beam patterns that lights can put out. And their are a very small number of vocal people that are just annoyed at anyone, it's true, I've seen them, they seem to think the multi-use trail is for them only. Like I said, I got vocal complaints, people clearing off the trail, etc when I had a particular high output wide beam light, so in that case I definitely think it was innapropriate for me to continue using on the trail.

But a 3200 lumen light mounted on a helmet where it's even more in your face - that sounds obnoxious. I understand why it's fun to ride with, but it's hard to imagine any way to use that kind of light output on a trail that isn't over the top blinding. It's not 100% sure that that's the case, but it would seem like it.

tcs

You need to get out more. Coming soon to an MUP near you.

This one was actually measured independently at very nearly its 6000lm advertised output.

"Nothing exceeds like excess."

tcs

Comments from others about my bike lights.

1972: I didn't see you.

1977: I didn't see you.

1981: I didn't see you.

1987: I didn't see you.

1994: I didn't see you.

1995: I didn't see you.

2001: I didn't see you.

2006: I didn't see you.

2010: I didn't see you.

2013: YOUR #@*&%! LIGHTS ARE TOO BRIGHT!

TallTravel

Gresp:

The flash on my night light is so much better than the steady light mode. I feel immeasurably safer.

Null66

Maybe a bit of aluminum tape across the top?

jrickards

There are 2 things I find funny about ^ this light (in photo below). (1) Compare the brightness of the 12,000LM headlight with the dim (I have one) rear blinky. (2) Notice on the headlight the arrows at the sides pointing forward; probably to prevent blindness as a result of mounting it backwards.

no motor?

Nah, I didn't think you were being obnoxious, I could tell by the amount of time and effort you put into your posts you were more concerned about telling others what was best for you. I just wanted to provide more information from another viewpoint. I've learned a lot from this site, and want to give something back to help others make a better decision. I know what works for me and what doesn't now, as well as how to ride to avoid annoying pedestrians dressed in dark clothing walking on a narrow bike path in the dark thanks to information obtained from this site.

I've been a bike commuter for about 7 or 8 years, and was a biker for almost 20 years. While that's not along time for bike commuting, lighting has improved considerably since I started bike commuting and decided getting some sort of lights would be a good idea when I started riding after dark. I went through several different lower powered sets of lights before I got a P7 Magicshine that could cause people to notice me and not pull/step out in front of me like they did when I was on my motorcycle. That "how did I miss seeing him" look I occasionally get now is the same as it was when I was a biker, and seeing that without seeing people cover their eyes/yell while still being able to see the skunks off to the side of the bike path tell me I'm not doing anything wrong - unless you ask those dog walkers I see during the day that know the bike path was built for their use only.