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Infrastructure

Old 05-23-16, 07:11 AM
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Equinox
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Infrastructure

I ride mostly in a semi-rural/ rural area. The roads in the beautiful famlands are terribly deteriorated. Road maintenence is non-existent. The freeze/thaw cycle is wreaking havoc, as you would expect. Many of these roads have a narrow but rideable shoulder, however, they are in especially bad shape. Even the actual driving lanes have many potholes. I have to ride in the driving lane, and even then, I'm all over the road. If you're in a farm vehicle or a pick up truck, it's probably not so bad. But eventually, due to lack of maintenence, these roads will become unusable to even motor vehicles. I think this is common throughout the country. How do you think it will be resolved? I heard that in some western states, they are reverting paved roads to dirt roads. We're going backwards now. There are hundreds of miles of road in my county alone that are substandard, not to mention the bridges. You know there will be a tragic loss of life due to a bridge collapse. It's just a matter of time. Where will the motivation and resources come from?
Oh, they use oil and stone in my area, which is a toltal waste of money and time.
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Old 05-23-16, 09:06 AM
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The money will come from massive tax cuts that result in increased revenue. Just look at LA and KS.
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Old 05-23-16, 10:48 AM
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From 1900 to 2000 (or perhaps up until the 1960's) the USA did a massive road building project of building and paving a web of roads, mostly from scratch across the nation.

I just can't believe if they had to money to do the scratch builds of the roads, they no longer have the money to maintain them.

Everything is expensive. But, here are a few estimates.

https://capitolfax.com/summary.pdf

New Construction 2 lane rural road with shoulders, $1,713,007 per mile.
Milling and resurfacing 2 lane rural road with shoulders, $416,437 per mile.
Chipseal (other docs), $30,000 per mile.

No doubt costs have gone up significantly over the years. But, how could the USA possibly have afforded to do the initial construction at 4x the cost of maintaining the roads?

I have to think part of the problem is just sending the money to the wrong place. Too many politicians, and not enough people out building roads.
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Old 05-23-16, 12:29 PM
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I'm in a similar area though the roads aren't quite that bad. They have done some repaving lately. There was a patch between 2008 and about 2013 where no repairs were done unless it was horrible (they would fill big potholes, but no paving got done). There was a section in the city nearby that honestly looked like it had been shelled - in a 35 MPH zone, you couldn't do over about 15 MPH without risking damage to your suspension in a car.

Finally a few years ago they started repaving again.

They do a bunch of chipseal around me as well. I hate the stuff. Right after it's done, the road is basically impossible to ride on for at least a few weeks. Once about 3 years ago they chipsealed every road leading away from my house and I couldn't ride for weeks. Even after years, the road is still not pleasant to ride on.

My last bike that I bought came with a pair of Schwalbe Big Apples. If I get into another chipseal or very bad road situation, I think I might give them a try. Or just give up and buy a fat bike. There are choices for < $1000 these days.
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Old 05-23-16, 12:48 PM
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I'm surprised there is not more scrutiny of the environmental impacts of chip sealing. I understand that all forms of paving are not exactly environmentally friendly. However, #1 . Chip sealing is ineffective. #2 . What is that oil/grease they spread? Where does it come from and what is it contaminated with? I'm certain it is leeched into the watershed, and since they do it so frequently (relative to normal paving), it is a continuous threat. #3 . The dust and particulates that go into the air.
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Old 05-23-16, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I have to think part of the problem is just sending the money to the wrong place.
If by 'part' you mean 'most' then I agree. It's priorities pure and simple. If/when infrastructure becomes important, it'll be addressed.
Unfortunately, a few more bridges may have to collapse.
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Old 05-23-16, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FenderTL5
Unfortunately, a few more bridges may have to collapse.
Actually, there has been a huge push in many places to update the major bridges, especially freeway bridges.

But that may ignore the rural roads. Maybe our politicians have forgotten that not all driving is done on freeways.

Thinking of bridges. There are two I-5 mirror image bridges crossing the Columbia river.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Bridge

Bridge 1: 1915-1917, $1.75 Million ($32 Million Inflation adjusted).
Bridge 2: 1958, $14.5 Million ($118.9 Million Inflation adjusted), an almost identical bridge was built across the river along side of the original.
Bridge 3: Planned replacement for both spans. Cancelled in 2013. $3.4 Billion to $10 Billion estimated cost for the replacement bridge. Cost overruns?

So... almost a 10,000 fold increase in cost. For that kind of money, I would think they should be able to build a thousand lane bridge a whole mile wide.

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Old 05-23-16, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Actually, there has been a huge push in many places to update the major bridges, especially freeway bridges.

But that may ignore the rural roads. Maybe our politicians have forgotten that not all driving is done on freeways.

Thinking of bridges. There are two I-5 mirror image bridges crossing the Columbia river.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Bridge

Bridge 1: 1915-1917, $1.75 Million ($32 Million Inflation adjusted).
Bridge 2: 1958, $14.5 Million ($118.9 Million Inflation adjusted), an almost identical bridge was built across the river along side of the original.
Bridge 3: Planned replacement for both spans. Cancelled in 2013. $3.4 Billion to $10 Billion estimated cost for the replacement bridge. Cost overruns?

So... almost a 10,000 fold increase in cost. For that kind of money, I would think they should be able to build a thousand lane bridge a whole mile wide.

If I recall my geography right, those are the ONLY drawbridges on the entire span of the I-5. I used to go to conventions every year at the hotel in the upper left background.
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Old 05-23-16, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
The money will come from massive tax cuts that result in increased revenue. Just look at LA and KS.

Yup. Everybody complains about their taxes, but they don't think about the roads and bridges and schools and such. Somebody has to pay for this stuff.

As Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "I like paying my taxes. With them I buy civilization."
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Old 05-23-16, 02:18 PM
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Politically a new traffic lane is worth a lot more than maintenance. Even though people scream about potholes you don't get a ribbon cutting photo from a repaving project.

Since most roads in the U.S. were built we've had a massive increase in suburbs. Suburban infrastructure is extremely expensive compared to urban and rural. Suburbs (and the increase in big-box groceries and such) massively increase the amount we drive and the amount of wear & tear on roads. Per capita we drive twice as many miles today as we did in 1980 and almost 5 times as many as we did in 1950.

The low density + high mileage of suburbs means that the per capita revenue (property taxes and gas tax) to maintain all of this infrastructure is extremely low. By most estimates the gas tax needs to increase to over $1.50 / gallon to adequately maintain what we have. With the proliferation of electric cars though we'll realistically need to go to a wheelage fee based system of some sort. This will be good though since people will directly see the cost of their driving on a per mile basis — estimates are about $0.18 per mile to cover road maintenance ($0.07), law enforcement ($0.08), and environmental impact ($0.03). These are averages and will be higher in frozen states.
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Old 05-23-16, 02:24 PM
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BTW, a properly built sidepath bikeway in rural Netherlands lasts about 5 times as long as an adjacent roadway. Technology just doesn't exist yet to create durable roadways for multi-thousand kg vehicles but current technology works quite well for low weight bicycles.
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Old 05-24-16, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Equinox
I ride mostly in a semi-rural/ rural area. The roads in the beautiful famlands are terribly deteriorated. Road maintenence is non-existent. The freeze/thaw cycle is wreaking havoc, as you would expect. Many of these roads have a narrow but rideable shoulder, however, they are in especially bad shape. Even the actual driving lanes have many potholes. I have to ride in the driving lane, and even then, I'm all over the road. If you're in a farm vehicle or a pick up truck, it's probably not so bad. But eventually, due to lack of maintenence, these roads will become unusable to even motor vehicles. I think this is common throughout the country. How do you think it will be resolved? I heard that in some western states, they are reverting paved roads to dirt roads. We're going backwards now. There are hundreds of miles of road in my county alone that are substandard, not to mention the bridges. You know there will be a tragic loss of life due to a bridge collapse. It's just a matter of time. Where will the motivation and resources come from?
Oh, they use oil and stone in my area, which is a toltal waste of money and time.
I don't know. Roads are OK around here. They've repaved the bad ones and are widening a troublesome bridge by rebuilding it. I can't complain. But, then again, my governor should have been the Republican nominee.
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Old 05-25-16, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Equinox
I heard that in some western states, they are reverting paved roads to dirt roads.
The only place I've heard of that happening is in Texas. Since Texas is in the Central time zone, it's technically an eastern state. Also, they're converting paved roads to gravel, not dirt. There's a difference, especially when it rains.

As far as riding on our deteriorating infrastructure goes, there's a reason for the trend towards wide, supple, lower pressure tires. If I were still riding on quality asphalt, I likely would still be rolling on 120 psi tires instead of the 45 psi that most of my bikes roll today.

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Old 05-25-16, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree

As far as riding on our deteriorating infrastructure goes, there's a reason for the trend towards wide, supple, lower pressure tires.
Bingo! give the man a cigar.

I don't understand why some insist on riding bikes unsuited for their environment, then complain about the required compromises and their results.
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Old 05-25-16, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Bingo! give the man a cigar.

I don't understand why some insist on riding bikes unsuited for their environment, then complain about the required compromises and their results.
I don't understand why you would accept a sub standard infrastructure. Guess you're right, though. You could go soft and fat (I don't like the sound of that for many reasons) or fight for proper roads. I want to fight for better roads. Either way, it sucks.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Equinox
I don't understand why you would accept a sub standard infrastructure. Guess you're right, though. You could go soft and fat (I don't like the sound of that for many reasons) or fight for proper roads. I want to fight for better roads. Either way, it sucks.
Or you could simply get off the 20c tires and get on to some 1.5 inch tires that are less apt to get caught in cracks on the road. That way you still ride AND stop complaining...

That was my solution... as the roads became notoriously under serviced in the San Diego area... I kept the skinny tire bike, and just rode it on newer development roads and bike paths... but for day to day commuting, I built a "truck" that I knew would handle the busted up pavement AND give me the upright position I needed to take on traffic.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:55 AM
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The real problem is that most transportation infrastructure money comes from the Federal Government, but is allocated to the State Governments to spend however they want (for the most part). The majority of states do not have a "fix-it first" policy, meaning that they can just keep on building shiny new highways and bridges while the rest of the roads crumble. This approach works great for politicians, because they get to cut the ribbon at these big important infrastructure builds, but their terms aren't generally long enough to give a hoot about long term maintenance, which isn't sexy or politically advantageous (and those shiny projects eventually become long term maintenance budget nightmares on top of everything else).

Here's a link to a PDF you can download all about that stuff, if you're interested.
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Old 05-25-16, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 1Woman2Wheels
The real problem is that most transportation infrastructure money comes from the Federal Government, but is allocated to the State Governments to spend however they want (for the most part). The majority of states do not have a "fix-it first" policy, meaning that they can just keep on building shiny new highways and bridges while the rest of the roads crumble. This approach works great for politicians, because they get to cut the ribbon at these big important infrastructure builds, but their terms aren't generally long enough to give a hoot about long term maintenance, which isn't sexy or politically advantageous (and those shiny projects eventually become long term maintenance budget nightmares on top of everything else).

Here's a link to a PDF you can download all about that stuff, if you're interested.
True... now all we need to do is stop "nationbuilding" off shore and start "maintaining" on shore. But yeah, like you said, nothing sexy about a politician standing in front of a big old spray gun declaring "we're gonna paint the whole bridge..."
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Old 05-25-16, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
BTW, a properly built sidepath bikeway in rural Netherlands lasts about 5 times as long as an adjacent roadway. Technology just doesn't exist yet to create durable roadways for multi-thousand kg vehicles but current technology works quite well for low weight bicycles.
Not really a solution.

Netherlands with 16,000 square miles of area and population density of 1055 per square mile is not the same as the US with an area of 3,536,000 square miles and a population density of 90 per square miles.

Netherlands solution only can possible apply to similar urban areas.
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Old 05-25-16, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
Not really a solution.

Netherlands with 16,000 square miles of area and population density of 1055 per square mile is not the same as the US with an area of 3,536,000 square miles and a population density of 90 per square miles.

Netherlands solution only can possible apply to similar urban areas.
So do you expect that the US would put bike paths through the California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Nevada deserts? Or is it vastly more practical to compare individual cities and their density to the Netherlands individual cities?
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Old 05-25-16, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
BTW, a properly built sidepath bikeway in rural Netherlands lasts about 5 times as long as an adjacent roadway. Technology just doesn't exist yet to create durable roadways for multi-thousand kg vehicles but current technology works quite well for low weight bicycles.
Originally Posted by squirtdad
Not really a solution.

Netherlands with 16,000 square miles of area and population density of 1055 per square mile is not the same as the US with an area of 3,536,000 square miles and a population density of 90 per square miles.

Netherlands solution only can possible apply to similar urban areas.
Originally Posted by genec
So do you expect that the US would put bike paths through the California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Nevada deserts? Or is it vastly more practical to compare individual cities and their density to the Netherlands individual cities?
I was trying to point out: references to bike path durability in the Netherlands has nothing to with the millions of miles of crumbling roads throughout the US. There will never be bike paths on most of those roads.

I was also making the point you made..... comparing Netherlands solutions to similar US situations is the only meaningful if there is a fit. But many of the largest US cities....like San Jose are not a good overall fit for some of the solutions used in the Netherlands as the cityscape, size and mass transit infrastructure is far different.... but now I am digressing beyond thread theme
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Old 05-25-16, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Equinox
I don't understand why you would accept a sub standard infrastructure. Guess you're right, though. You could go soft and fat (I don't like the sound of that for many reasons) or fight for proper roads. I want to fight for better roads. Either way, it sucks.
I find it far more productive, and less stressful to make my decisions based on how things actually are, rather than how I think they should be when I head out the door to ride every day.
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Old 05-25-16, 02:30 PM
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But by all means, don't stress yourself out. Keep paying for things you don't get.
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Old 05-25-16, 03:52 PM
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In my county, for state highways, the operating budget for maintenance in FY16 is $108 mil of which $105 of that is from the state highway special fund. The capital improvement budget is $35 mil ($16 state bonds / $19 fed funds from FAST 2015). So it doesn't seem like building new is taking such a big precedence over repairing existing. Of course, all the environmental controls (just getting a FONSI takes months) means nothing is ever "shovel ready".

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Old 05-25-16, 03:58 PM
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Reality check.

Playing the martyr, and whining on BF will do nothing for my commute home today like appropriate equipment for my environment will.

Let's not be silly.
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