Campag4life

Gang,
My first Di2 bike. Always liked it. Always preferred mechanical Campy to other mechanical groupsets. Early Di2 was good. Latest Ultegra Di2 just hits it out of the park with improved ergonomics and overall refinements.

Just pulling it out of the box today. Been shopping for new bike for a while. Cervelo's new R3 for 2018 is the bike for me across the board. It is everything I want in a bike...incredible stiffness and ride comfort...very light, my size 58 is 16.5 lbs and I will likely switch to a carbon handlebar soon and frameset has subtle aero cues. Frame is sub 1000g. Cervelo took 150g out of the new rim brake R3. Changing the wheelset would make the biggest difference, but I don't race and can generally keep up with the A group guys.

They nailed the geometry...not uber slammed but not kiss your sister endurance geometry. I like the Emonda a lot, I just like this bike even better from the 2 bolt seatpost traditional and non proprietary seatpost compared to the R5...to the 'threaded' non conversion Bbright BB...press in cups threaded together...doesn't need Loctite to keep quiet and converts to Ultegra crank which is my fav and comes on the bike. After all these years of making Pressfit, Cervelo is stepping up with their 79mm wide shell version of PF30 offset 11mm on non drive side they call BBright whereby they thread the cups together. Finally, they are answering the bell. Don't have to regress all the way back to BSA and outboard bearings and can have wide shell and companion massively wide chainstay cake and eat it too without creaking. Most know its lack of lateral retention that makes pressfit creak and threading the cups together to form a unit solves that without Loctite aka glue. . This BB is an elegant solution that was too long in coming. Very light and about the stiffest in the industry and will fit a 30mm crank if you prefer Rotor or another long spindle 30mm crank option.

But I am a Di2 newbie and so a basic question to those that have ridden Di2 for many thousand miles. I can set it up ok with on line help and youtube videos...will go first on the stand in day or two...
.
Debating whether I will work through the Di2 baseline tuning procedure...will see how it shifts on the stand.

But my question is...what happens if a shifter button is pushed to shift either the front or rear derailleur without the crank spinning to effectuate a shift? Will this break anything? Is there a motion sensor in front or rear mech that blocks a shift if the crank isn't rotating? Or.. do you guys suggest be careful about leaning the bike against the wall to not accidently shift the bike if the crank isn't rotating?

Also, any advice or lessons learned about set up or tips you learned the hard way would be appreciated...thanks.

A pic pulling it out the box and a pic of what the bike will look like on the road. It is a navy blue with red stripes. Downtube and BB and chainstays are massive. Cervelo says the stiffest bike they have ever produced It looks it. Seat stays are spaghetti thin in contrast. Previous R3 has won both the Paris Roubaix and even the TdF. If I were to describe this bike, with its frame angles, HT, trail, wheelbase, stack/reach, it is basically a kinder and gentler Tarmac. A Tarmac SL6 won't beat you up either but a more frenetic ride and pure race bike with nervous handling many racers prefer compared to the R3. But this bike will rock when you push it and a bit more composed when hammering along.. A race bike without the hard edge as I am no crit racer.

noodle soup

No. Nothing will break.

Congratulations on your Di2 purchase. I will support your name change.

Campag4life

Thanks Noodle Soup.
Will it try to shift with the crank not spinning? Will the servo's push on the derailleur hardware? Any idea?

noodle soup

The derailleurs will move, but nothing bad will happen.

I've never seen the scenario you are talking about, cause a problem for any electric drivetrain.

Campag4life

Just so I understand...

When shifter button is pushed with a static crank,
the servo motor in rear or front derailleur will 'try' and shift but the chain will restrain either the rear pulley cage in back or front derailleur cage and chain will keep them from moving to the next location. If buttons are bumped when moving the bike with the rider off of it, this has to happen and so I wondered about it.

Will share what I read. You may or may not have this personal experience. With Campy mechanical, you can do a big cog dump in back. Big thumb push and the chain falls down the cassette. Of course there is no foul shifting down the cassette or trying to with the crank still and not rotating. The pully cage will simply push laterally on the chain by derailleur spring force. Nothing will happen until you turn the crank and then the chain will stairstep down the cassette.

I read one account that too many shifts down the cassette with Di2 without suitable crank rotation unlike with the mechanical RD, this rider reported it bent his rear derailleur hanger. Didn't harm Di2 derailleurs but the hanger had to be replaced.

Maybe you don't have this experience. I am trying to determine just how sensitive Di2 is to shifting without suitable crank rotation.

Marcus_Ti

Refrain from doing it. Shimano says so in their user manuals. Yes, it will try to shift.

"Note • Be sure to rotate the crank when carrying out any switch operations which are related to gear shifting."
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/um/UM-5ND0B-004-00-ENG.pdf

Also...in addition to any concerns of bending derailleur mountings....incomplete shifts will keep Di2 awake and eat your battery.

noodle soup

I'd like to see this post. I'm not saying you didn't read it somewhere, I just don't believe what "that guy" posted.

TimothyH

Congratulations on a gorgeous bike!

You can push either front or rear shift button without the cranks moving. The derailleurs will move. Nothing will break.

It's the same as trying to shift a mechanical system without pedaling. The front will push against the chain and the rear will only be able to move so far.

Don't store the bike with the buttons leaning against anything and be careful how it is placed into the trunk of a car or back of an SUV, that's all. It can drain the battery if left that way for a long time.

Shimano says not to shift without the drivetrain moving but in practice it isn't a big deal if it happens accidentally. I wouldn't worry about it much. Just try not to, that's all.


-Tim-

cb400bill

I love my Ultegra Di2. Smooth faultless shifting.

The only issue that I've had was I thought my bike shop charged the battery when they prepped the bike. I can tell you that on my bike when the battery is dead that the FD defaults to the small chainring and the RD defaults to the middle of the cassette.

rm -rf

Shimano "dealer" (assembly and adjustments) manuals are on-line, and very useful if you want to do any adjustments yourself. I have this pdf: DM-UL0001-02-ENG.pdf, from https://si.shimano.com/

From the front derailleur pdf, UM-5ND0B-001-00-ENG.pdf:
When the shifting switch is operated, the motor which drives the front derailleur will operate to the shifting position without stopping, so be careful not to get your fingers caught.

Yeah, the front derailleur has a powerful motor. I've accidentally shifted without turning the cranks (then shifted back), and nothing was damaged.

To get to the smallest sprocket when I'm off the bike, I sometimes shift the rear derailleur a few clicks, then lift the rear wheel and turn the crank to move the chain over.

Battery
I recharge quite soon after the battery indicator goes to blinking green. That's below 50% charge. (I ran low of charge on a ride, so the front stopped shifting, and I wasn't sure how many more rear shifts I had left. So I don't let it get that low anymore, and there's no reason to discharge a lithium battery that far anyway.)

I shift "all the time", often for just a few pedal strokes, then shift again. I used to get 600-1000 miles per charge, depending on how rolling the rides were. Rolling hills, with constant shifting, are where the Di2 is really helpful.

Now the battery is a little over 4 years old, and I have to check it often. It goes to blinking green after about 400 miles now, and will go to solid red, that's "low to 25% charge" within a couple of rides after that. So the battery is nearing the end of it's useful life. I'll wait until spring and replace it. It's been about 15,000 miles.

rm -rf

I've used the E-tube PC software for setting Di2 options and for updating firmware on the Di2 components. (Heh, yeah, I updated my bike's firmware... That's a sentence I wouldn't have expected to use 10 years ago.)

I did one update some years ago, but the recent updates were more for adding new hardware, and the few bug fixes didn't apply to me.

I did use the e-tube software to set my shifting to be "shift 3" on a "long press". That's holding the shift button down for 1/2 second or longer.
So now:
At the base of a hill, hold both bottom buttons. That shifts to the small chainring and three harder cogs. From there, I might shift one more cog.
Over the top of the hill: hold both top buttons. To the big chainring and three easier cogs.
It's simple to remember when I'm going all-out, too.

It came configured to "shift all cogs" on a long press. That's pretty useless.

cruiserhead

You'll get over worrying about accidentally shifting or bumping the levers quickly. It's not fragile. You won't break or bend anything.

The only thing that I had to learn was how to set up the front mech. I messed with it when I changed my crankset, otherwise I would have never had any issue.
There is a support screw hidden next to one of the limit screws, that needs to correctly 'set' as it prevents the mech from flexing.
If you ever have trouble shifting, back that all the way off and start clean and remount and follow setup procedure. Super easy.

Otherwise, it's been perfect with no adjustment or any issue at all in over a year solid use. Perfect shifts everytime.

Campag4life

So many superb comments. Thanks so much you guys. I wasn't that vexed about bending anything when pushing a shift button without pedaling, but wondered about it and the shared experience of those that have owned Di2 is invaluable to someone like me that have ridden mechanical groupsets my whole life and with limited electric shifting experience except on borrowed or test rides. All the advice you guys provide a Di2 newb like me really helps a lot.

Rm-rf you add so much knowledge to this forum. Thank you. You are a smart guy and I always appreciate your very keen insight.

I will tell you guys, like many here, I do my own wrenching and if getting a bike from a bike shop, I always rebuild it and adjust it to my taste which is always different than it comes out of any shop. I am however good friends with the lead wrench at the lbs who is a wonderful guy and very knowledgeable about bikes and can build anything.
He says they sell a lot of Di2 and Etap out of their shop. I asked him which he prefers. He said Di2 is much more reliable. I debated on buying or building an Etap bike because assembly is undeniably easier. I am just not a fan of shifting 'over the air waves' and separate batteries. I am sure Etap loyalists will vehemently disagree. But I am ok with stringing some E-tubes through the frame for solid communication of system components talking to one another and single battery located in the seatpost which can be charged by plugging in near the stem. Di2 is my preferred 'combined' groupset which includes their crank and brakes. Shimano is so dam competent all said. I have worked with Japanese engineers. They are so anal they will drive you crazy.

Thanks again.

Campag4life

Thanks for the compliment on the bike Tim. Much appreciated. I am such a fussy guy that for me its more about crunching all the details and distilling it down to a singular choice. Because no bike is all things, I basically wanted a bike that was very fast but wouldn't beat my aging body up. I love race bikes but many have a cost in terms of ride quality with shorter wheelbase and less trail and faster more attentive handling which for some translates to nervous. I prefer a bit more composure. What Cervelo did with the R-series is create what they consider to be the best classic road bike or all arounder. Not quite as aero as the S-series but not the more sedate and upright and longer wheelbase C-series. I was searching for Goldilocks. I also wanted to try Di2.
So when Cervelo redesigned the venerated R-series with its pedigree refined already over several years and took it up yet another notch really doing all the things I could ask for...all the changes I could hope for, a frame I couldn't have designed as well in total, it went on my short list and I came across this bike in my size.

Here is perhaps one of the best reviews I have read on the web from a man I consider to be one of the best reviewers in the industry who works for BikeRadar. Warren knows bikes and gives the new R3 tall praise. He tested with disc and not Di2 but the disc and rim brake bike are close in performance and weight with similar characteristics. I know many here love disc brake bikes but I live in the flat country and I prefer rim brakes and I personally love the new Shimano dual pivot rim brakes as they are so outstanding. Warrant believes for just the frameset, the new R3 is one of the best in the industry. Tall praise. Although I am thinner...Warren doesn't look to be most fit guy for reviewing bikes on the planet he and I are the same height and he rides a 58cm which I consider as well as he doesn't ride too slammed and I am older than him I believe only without the grey hair. I believe the TCR Advanced 2 won Bike of the Year which btw, I would consider as well because the TCR is so outstanding but I wanted a bit more stack and slightly less aggressive geometry in general. The TCR and Tarmac are such great race bikes.

The color of the bike in the review is a bit too loud for me. I am not a citrus yellow or glowing lime green kind of rider. I know some of you guys like real bright bike colors but I prefer a more understated color scheme and hence my choice of Navy and red which I love. The stark white Cervelo graphic btw is very large on the massive and log like down tube on the dark blue version I have.

Campag4life

Question, for you guys that do your own work on your Di2 bikes or maybe take them apart etc for travel.
Is the following tool a must have for taking apart and reassembly of Di2 E-tubes?
Thanks

cruiserhead

yes
you need that tool
cheap insurance

SkepticalOne

Congratulations on the new machine. Very classic and classy geometry. Also, great choice of groupset. Others have covered the main meat of the subject...the only thing I'll add is that you might strongly consider the addition of the SW-R600 climbing switch as you wire the bike. It is the one greatest difference in utility that I enjoy in my R8070 setup versus my mechanical groups.

Will be interested to get your opinion on synchro shifting.

SkepticalOne

I just manually pull to disconnect the circuit at the Bluetooth transmitter for travel and plug it back in manually once at destination. I've never needed to use the tool.

Campag4life

Thanks for your advice Skeptical One.
Did you reprogram your Di2 for synchronized shifting? Or, did it come that way? I don't have the bike built and put on the stand yet to test the shifting.

Lastly, are those buttons you show up by the stem.... Is that switch for up and down the rear cassette only?

SkepticalOne

This is my actual bike showing below...the SW-R600 button is wired to the RHS STI body. Depending on your chosen shift-mode (readily toggled from junction box on the fly), the RHS STI actuates only RD - or, is your singular shifter for both FD and RD (under full synchro mode). The climbing buttons, when wired as I have it, faithfully mimic the RHS lever - effectively an extension of the RHS STI paddles.

I use full synchro shift mode these days, and therefore, the 'climbing shifter' buttons you see are capable of taking me through the entire range of gears. On the upshifts, once the RD gets to a sufficiently high gear, the FD is automatically actuated, bringing me to the big ring, and the RD subsequently makes its auto correction shift. On the downshift, once I get to a sufficient low gear as to be cross-chained, the FD automatically kicks me into the small ring, followed by an immediate and automatic correction shift at the RD. All gears accessible from those two little thumb buttons while in the tops climbing.

I have the switch button setup so that the right button downshifts and the left button up. This is all configurable in the iPhone app.

As part of Di2 setup, you indicate what gearing you have, and the synchro shift points have default settings. You may override the default shift points and corrective shifts yourself with your own preferences at that point. The BT transceiver is handy to I/F with a smartphone so that you can experiment away from the PC. Once you get things dialed-in, you rarely use the app (or BT txcvr) again.





I only use my LHS shift lever in the most rare of circumstances to override the synchro.

Campag4life

Very cool. Thanks so much for sharing that detail. Interesting and I sure as I get my sea legs with Di2 I will delve more into its capability as you have.
I wonder for me based upon the gear inches I ride at...in syncro mode if I would forever be toggling between big ring and small which may not be desirable. I tend to cross chain a bit in fast group rides in the big ring as the line slows and don't know if flipping between chainrings up front involuntarily would work out well. But for solo riding, sounds like maybe preferred.
Great pics btw. Thanks so much.

Marcus_Ti

Get it. It is a cheap tool--and it ensures that the cables are fully seated. Sometimes their audible click isn't that audible. All it takes is a slight short (slightly unseated connector) to cause rogues battery drain.

I run in semi-synchronized all the time. Our roller-terrain doesn't work well for full with rollers for me.

Once you get passed the GUI it is easy enough to play with the shift points....only catch is that based on gearing Shimano locks out certain capabilities. For example 53/39 cranks are the most free in what you can do, 50/34 less so. If there were any criticism at Shimano to be leveled it would be for the specious and arbitrary nature of gearing multi-shift/synch-shift.

Campag4life

Ordered the tool. Thanks guys.

Marcus, can you describe the diff between full sync and semi sync?

Also, do you know if the Shimano software to access Di2 is available for a Windows 10 laptop?

noodle soup

yes it is.

********************E-TUBE PROJECT????

TimothyH

I didn't quote your whole post but read the whole thing and understand exactly where you are and where you are coming from. I'm going on 55 and am also looking at building an R3 or R5 for the same reasons you cited, although I am thinking of a mountain bike now.

You are going to love the Cervelo and will look back at setting up Di2 as one of the easiest things you have ever done to a bike. Please have zero anxiety about Di2 and keep us posted.


-Tim-