Toe Clips or MTB Cleats for Urban Riding
03-13-20, 02:48 PM
#201
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
If you have to put a liittle more glue on the rim, so what. You have to pump them up but why can't you go with Co2. From there you are not limping, you are riding. You mat have to trash every flat but you would have to use up 3 - 4 of these lower end tubulars to reach the cost of a top end clincher.
03-13-20, 02:51 PM
#202
Senior Member
Thread Starter
MJAC, youre an old soul --- you should spend a little bit of time in the Classic and Vintage forums here over the weekend, you would love one of these old relics and now is the time to buy --- Vintage bikes are cheap compared to the way they were just 5 or 6 years ago - as well , the vintage sales forum usually has some great stuff from other members
This Colnago is my flashiest machine , and I bought it through the forum from a forum member . Since I bought it about 5 years ago, I paid top dollar (around 1500 shipped IIRC ), but now you could probably find something similar for $900- $1100, perhaps even less. But as pretty as it is, I don't regret a single extra penny --
I just compare it to what $1500 buys off a showroom today ---- probably something perfectly capable, efficient and reasonably light, - but this 30 year old machine has a lot more pizzazz in my opinion
This Colnago is my flashiest machine , and I bought it through the forum from a forum member . Since I bought it about 5 years ago, I paid top dollar (around 1500 shipped IIRC ), but now you could probably find something similar for $900- $1100, perhaps even less. But as pretty as it is, I don't regret a single extra penny --
I just compare it to what $1500 buys off a showroom today ---- probably something perfectly capable, efficient and reasonably light, - but this 30 year old machine has a lot more pizzazz in my opinion
When the time comes, the guys in C&V have integrity? I guesse it is like everything else, you find the handful of people you can trust and go from there. But I would much rather pursue this then some Crabon. Something like that Raleigh with tubular rims, perfect. Nothing flashy, just classic.
03-13-20, 02:58 PM
#203
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Bingo!
Nobody repairs a tubular on the side of the road. In the old days, riders used to keep a spare tire folded up under their seat and fastened with an old toe strap --- you would peel off your flat tire and put on the spare -- the glue residue left on both the spare tire and the wheel would be enough to adhere it to get you home - just don't do any high speed cornering. This is a quicker flat repair than changing a tube, but it is still a limp home fix for the most part
For most of us that still use them - flatting a tubular is simply the end of that tire -- its too much of a pain to repair it properly
That Raleigh I pictured has lower line training tubulars -- Vittoria RAllys, at about $25 each , Continental makes the Giro tire for not much more also , but the Continental Sonderklasse tires on the track bike are more like 130 apiece -- so a flat is pretty expensive.
I would imagine a pro road racer would be using a tire along the lines of that quality level regardless of the brand . But in my case, the nice wheels and tires might only be used for 4 or 5 events a year and last 3 or 4 seasons
But even on the road for regular guys, - riding a set of tubulars is a delight --- I just wouldn't ride them on anything but a familiar , pretty smooth route because of the pain to repair and the high cost
Nobody repairs a tubular on the side of the road. In the old days, riders used to keep a spare tire folded up under their seat and fastened with an old toe strap --- you would peel off your flat tire and put on the spare -- the glue residue left on both the spare tire and the wheel would be enough to adhere it to get you home - just don't do any high speed cornering. This is a quicker flat repair than changing a tube, but it is still a limp home fix for the most part
For most of us that still use them - flatting a tubular is simply the end of that tire -- its too much of a pain to repair it properly
That Raleigh I pictured has lower line training tubulars -- Vittoria RAllys, at about $25 each , Continental makes the Giro tire for not much more also , but the Continental Sonderklasse tires on the track bike are more like 130 apiece -- so a flat is pretty expensive.
I would imagine a pro road racer would be using a tire along the lines of that quality level regardless of the brand . But in my case, the nice wheels and tires might only be used for 4 or 5 events a year and last 3 or 4 seasons
But even on the road for regular guys, - riding a set of tubulars is a delight --- I just wouldn't ride them on anything but a familiar , pretty smooth route because of the pain to repair and the high cost
One other thing, how did they develop a glue strong enough to keep the tire from spinning or rolling off the rim but still be able to pull the tire off to change it? What the heck do they use? I am starting to love these tubulars.
03-13-20, 03:03 PM
#204
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
Call me crazy, I know this is the top of your collection, but I like the Raleigh. Maybe it's the paint or the chrome fork ends but that bike has lines and at $500 would be much greater value for the money, much greater. And it has tubulars. You did not answer my question. That Raleigh is tough enough for Ciicylcross? I wouldn't think it could handle that.
Last edited by alcjphil; 03-13-20 at 03:11 PM.
03-13-20, 03:18 PM
#205
Senior Member
Thread Starter
It was a typo, the price didn't change. It is impossible to "grind down" clincher rims so that they can be used with tubular tires. The rim designs are totally incompatible. There is a company however that makes tubular tires that can be used on clincher rims:
https://www.tufo.com/en/tubular-clincher/
https://www.tufo.com/en/tubular-clincher/
That at is a great looking tire. The advantages of a tubular and the convenience of a clincher without even having to switch to tubular rims. I wonder why this isn't the rage. I couldn't get the website to work for me so I do not know their price. One section of the description said no glue required and another section said the cotton base layer absorbs glue evenly for a good bond between tire and rim. Do they use glue or not? Really nice looking tire though if they aren't too expensive.
03-13-20, 03:22 PM
#206
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
If you ground down a rim to eliminate the sidewalls needed for a clincher tire you would eliminate the braking surface and the resultant rim would be too small for a tubular tire. The two types of rims are not in any way the same
03-13-20, 03:25 PM
#207
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Properly glued tubs are very difficult to remove from the rim. I found out why over 30 years ago. I was starting out a lunchtime ride and I accelerated while turning a corner. I "rolled" my rear tire leaving me flat on the ground. The more glue you use, the harder it is to remove a tire. Pumping up your tire isn't the issue, properly glued "tubs" are really, really hard to remove from the rim
03-13-20, 03:41 PM
#208
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Reynolds 531 frames are lightweight but very strong. My own Limongi was built with lightweight Columbus tubing. Toughness has little to do with light weight and everything to do with the expertise of the framebuilder. See that frame pump in the photo? I can pump tires up to 120 psi with it
That is the full lengthen down tube pump you were talking about. For a quick fix I am going to hit it with Co2 and get the h out of there.
03-13-20, 03:46 PM
#209
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
[EDIT] I added this to an earlier version of the page, before others posted this same stuff ... skip at at no risk.
The reason tubulars can outperform clinchers in most aspects is because of the aspects in which they fail miserably.
Imagine being on the side of the road, with no shoulder, with a light rain falling, the sun setting, heavier clouds rolling in .... and you have to peel a glued tire off a rim, find the puncture (which could be the ubiquitous and invisible radial tire wire) and unsew the casing, apply a patch, resew the casing and glue the tubular back onto the rim .... and if you don't get it right, you can't ride, because you didn't bring two tubes of glue.
Then you have to pump it up to 200 psi---with your mini-pump. All in the dark and a hard rain.
or .... pull off the wheel, take off the tire, examine the whole inside of the casing, find the offending alien object, remove it, slap a new tube in place, pump it up to 110 psi with your mini-pump, and be back on the road before the light fully fails or the heavier rain arrives.
Or .... don't eve notice, because your smooth-rolling low-pressure, low-rolling-resistance tubeless tires self-seal, and you never even know you had a momentary leak.
The reason tubulars can outperform clinchers in most aspects is because of the aspects in which they fail miserably.
Imagine being on the side of the road, with no shoulder, with a light rain falling, the sun setting, heavier clouds rolling in .... and you have to peel a glued tire off a rim, find the puncture (which could be the ubiquitous and invisible radial tire wire) and unsew the casing, apply a patch, resew the casing and glue the tubular back onto the rim .... and if you don't get it right, you can't ride, because you didn't bring two tubes of glue.
Then you have to pump it up to 200 psi---with your mini-pump. All in the dark and a hard rain.
or .... pull off the wheel, take off the tire, examine the whole inside of the casing, find the offending alien object, remove it, slap a new tube in place, pump it up to 110 psi with your mini-pump, and be back on the road before the light fully fails or the heavier rain arrives.
Or .... don't eve notice, because your smooth-rolling low-pressure, low-rolling-resistance tubeless tires self-seal, and you never even know you had a momentary leak.
Cheers
03-13-20, 03:48 PM
#210
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well, I will put my grinder away but this bike is going to eventually get Hard Case Gator Skins anyway and the vintage road bike I would like to get will have tubular rims. Gators on one, Tubulars on the other. Total contrast to make for everyone gnashing their teeth.
03-13-20, 03:49 PM
#211
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 32,989
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Mentioned: 325 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11960 Post(s)
Liked 6,629 Times
in
3,477 Posts
I realize we're on a different topic now, but my vote on the original topic is -- toe clips with the straps loose, not tightened. Works fine, allows you to get your foot out quickly in urban urgencies.
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
Likes For BillyD:
03-13-20, 04:35 PM
#212
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
That is the exact question I asked DMC707, how can you glue up a tubular so it does not spin or roll of the rim and still be able to get it off to change the tire? And the longer the tire is on there the more the glue cures, how do you get it off? Tear the tire? There isn't a solvent you can use to shoot between the tire and rim to loosen the glue a bit?
03-13-20, 04:39 PM
#213
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
Topics can sometimes evolve and sometimes we need reminders about where they started out. Thank you very much for the reality check
03-13-20, 04:42 PM
#214
Senior Member
Thread Starter
03-13-20, 04:52 PM
#215
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Yeah BillyD, de done high jacked my thread. Do you know of an Administrator I can complain to?
03-13-20, 07:17 PM
#216
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
Please, the OP has done at least as much as anyone to take this thread off course. Unless the OP takes as much responsibility as I do, please close this thread
Likes For alcjphil:
03-13-20, 07:36 PM
#217
Newbie
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 24
Bikes: 1987 Schwinn High Sierra, 1991 GT Tachyon, 1999 Bike Friday Air Friday, 1986 Bridgestone MB-2, 1995 Trek 970 SHX, One One Inbred, 1986 Specialized Rockhopper Jr., 1987 Schwinn Sierra, (formerly owned): 1995 Cannondale R800C, 1988 Schwinn High Sierra
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times
in
4 Posts
One of the reasons I got into biking, rather than running (years ago, it was an exercise thing), was that I didn’t have to change my clothes or stretch first. I was really drawn to the ability to hop on and go at any time (it is also much faster, and you can carry things). I prefer toe clips with loose straps, and I can get my feet in and out in almost no time, and I can do it by feel. The reason I started using them was for mountain biking—you can stay with your bike and control it while you are in the air. They also help you to keep footing if you have a worn chain/cassette and your chain slips under hard pedaling. Keeps you from coming down hard on the saddle or top tube.
I like to wear western style boots, and the ones with round or pointed toes are really fast to get in and out of toe cages. If you want to have the effect of tight toe straps but still be able to get your feet in and out easily, pointed toes work really well. You can set things up so that the tip of the toe goes into the space between the two pillars on the front of the cage so it kind of locks up, but since everything is tapered, they still slip in and out really easily. I don’t recall ever crashing and having my feet stuck in my cages: one or both of my feet (depending on the situation) will come out of the cage almost instinctively and hit the ground, keeping me from eating dirt.
I like to wear western style boots, and the ones with round or pointed toes are really fast to get in and out of toe cages. If you want to have the effect of tight toe straps but still be able to get your feet in and out easily, pointed toes work really well. You can set things up so that the tip of the toe goes into the space between the two pillars on the front of the cage so it kind of locks up, but since everything is tapered, they still slip in and out really easily. I don’t recall ever crashing and having my feet stuck in my cages: one or both of my feet (depending on the situation) will come out of the cage almost instinctively and hit the ground, keeping me from eating dirt.
03-13-20, 08:29 PM
#218
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Damn it alcphil, it was a joke. Of course I steered the thread off of the original idea when I asked DMC707 about Cicylcross riders using tubulars and you started contributing and we got into the discussion of tubulars, how they work and their history even their role in the 2003 Tour de France because it was damn interesting and still is. I picked up a lot of information I never new before and I am sure other people did too and I do not regret it.You didn't see how I phrased it to BiilyD, "de done", please. It was a joke plain and simple. Case closed. Jesus.
03-13-20, 08:44 PM
#219
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
Damn it alcphil, it was a joke. Of course I steered the thread off of the original idea when I asked DMC707 about Cicylcross riders using tubulars and you started contributing and we got into the discussion of tubulars, how they work and their history even their role in the 2003 Tour de France because it was damn interesting and still is. I picked up a lot of information I never new before and I am sure other people did too and I do not regret it.You didn't see how I phrased it to BiilyD, "de done", please. It was a joke plain and simple. Case closed. Jesus.
03-13-20, 08:50 PM
#220
Senior Member
Thread Starter
One of the reasons I got into biking, rather than running (years ago, it was an exercise thing), was that I didn’t have to change my clothes or stretch first. I was really drawn to the ability to hop on and go at any time (it is also much faster, and you can carry things). I prefer toe clips with loose straps, and I can get my feet in and out in almost no time, and I can do it by feel. The reason I started using them was for mountain biking—you can stay with your bike and control it while you are in the air. They also help you to keep footing if you have a worn chain/cassette and your chain slips under hard pedaling. Keeps you from coming down hard on the saddle or top tube.
I like to wear western style boots, and the ones with round or pointed toes are really fast to get in and out of toe cages. If you want to have the effect of tight toe straps but still be able to get your feet in and out easily, pointed toes work really well. You can set things up so that the tip of the toe goes into the space between the two pillars on the front of the cage so it kind of locks up, but since everything is tapered, they still slip in and out really easily. I don’t recall ever crashing and having my feet stuck in my cages: one or both of my feet (depending on the situation) will come out of the cage almost instinctively and hit the ground, keeping me from eating dirt.
I like to wear western style boots, and the ones with round or pointed toes are really fast to get in and out of toe cages. If you want to have the effect of tight toe straps but still be able to get your feet in and out easily, pointed toes work really well. You can set things up so that the tip of the toe goes into the space between the two pillars on the front of the cage so it kind of locks up, but since everything is tapered, they still slip in and out really easily. I don’t recall ever crashing and having my feet stuck in my cages: one or both of my feet (depending on the situation) will come out of the cage almost instinctively and hit the ground, keeping me from eating dirt.
03-13-20, 09:04 PM
#221
Senior Member
Thread Starter
"Information I never new before", is, again, obviously something I did not know about until I read about it from you and DMC707. As obvious as me joking around with BillyD about people hijacking my thread (which I have no propriety over anyway) when I was the one who took the whole discussion toward tubulars by asking DMC707 about tubulars and cicylcross which surprised me because I did not know tubulars were used in cicylcross. That is because I did not know, not because I did not know before I knew. I was not being flippant. That is your conclusion. I was expressing my frustration with the tendency of this forum looking for problems that don't exist and making a big issue over nothing. Like you claiming someone was blaming you for hijacking a thread when that did not even exist. Over nothing.
03-13-20, 09:12 PM
#222
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,925
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1818 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
"Information I never new before", is, again, obviously something I did not know about until I read about it from you and DMC707. As obvious as me joking around with BillyD about people hijacking my thread (which I have no propriety over anyway) when I was the one who took the whole discussion toward tubulars by asking DMC707 about tubulars and cicylcross which surprised me because I did not know tubulars were used in cicylcross. That is because I did not know, not because I did not know before I knew. I was not being flippant. That is your conclusion. I was expressing my frustration with the tendency of this forum looking for problems that don't exist and making a big issue over nothing. Like you claiming someone was blaming you for hijacking a thread when that did not even exist. Over nothing.
03-13-20, 09:15 PM
#223
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times
in
569 Posts
Tubular tires, or ‘sew-ups’ can be made much thinner and lighter than a clincher tire because it has no bead; the tire casing wraps completely around the tube, forming a single unit.
Classic racing tires had silk casings for light weight and durability. They’re still used in road racing for those reasons, although they’re made with modern materials.
Drawbacks to tubulars is that they have to be glued to the (tubular specific) rim. In the event of a flat, not only does the tire have to be removed and reglued, but you have to unstitch the casing, patch the tube, and then re-glue it to the rim. This is why you have your team mechanic swap in a new wheel, so it can be repaired later at the hotel after the day’s stage is finished.
Tubulars are also eye-wateringly expensive.
They’ve made a niche in pro cyclocross because, since there’s no bead, there’s less risk of pinch-flats at the lower pressure one would run off-road. Tubeless is gaining ground with ‘sport’ riders there for it’s resistance to pinch-flats, while being more cost effective and user friendly than ‘tubs.’
Classic racing tires had silk casings for light weight and durability. They’re still used in road racing for those reasons, although they’re made with modern materials.
Drawbacks to tubulars is that they have to be glued to the (tubular specific) rim. In the event of a flat, not only does the tire have to be removed and reglued, but you have to unstitch the casing, patch the tube, and then re-glue it to the rim. This is why you have your team mechanic swap in a new wheel, so it can be repaired later at the hotel after the day’s stage is finished.
Tubulars are also eye-wateringly expensive.
They’ve made a niche in pro cyclocross because, since there’s no bead, there’s less risk of pinch-flats at the lower pressure one would run off-road. Tubeless is gaining ground with ‘sport’ riders there for it’s resistance to pinch-flats, while being more cost effective and user friendly than ‘tubs.’
If you consider prices for comparable clincher tires eye-wateringly expensive...
03-13-20, 09:54 PM
#224
Senior Member
Thread Starter
First, you claimed people were blaming you for hijacking a thread. That did not exist. It was baseless.
Now you are basing an argument on the spelling of words that were changed by the computer's auto correct that I did not catch. You are creating an argument over nothing for the sake of arguing. That has no beneficial aspects to it.
Last edited by mjac; 03-13-20 at 11:00 PM.
03-13-20, 10:08 PM
#225
Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,558
Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked 2,173 Times
in
1,464 Posts
Hey guys. Let’s watch the insults. This thread is interesting even if the original topic changed.