I find it amazing what advertising can condition people to accept
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Advertising?
Does anyone really think advertising has influenced bike purchases to any great extent? I mean, there has not been any push to advertise directly to consumers since the Schwinn days of Captain Kangaroo in the 60’s. Most recent advertising is pointed toward enthusiasts already well involved in the sport. How many TV commercials have you seen for bicycles compared to say toothpaste, or deodorant, or cars, or almost anything else.
In gereral if folks in the lowest price ranges decide to get a bike they head over to Walmart or Dick’s and probably see the names they heard when they were a kid, Schwinn, Diamond Back, Mongoose, and all the no name Ozone’s. At a slightly higher price point people head to the local bike shop where they are introduced to sizing, purpose intended, and weight versus performance decisions. The only name they might have heard of is usually Trek. Giant? Specialized? nope. Not until you’re involved in the sport do you know all the brand names. And then advertising is peripheral compared to peer recommendations, online reviews, and other influencers.
And those folks headed to Walmart for a Schwinn are getting a significantly better bike than the cheap bikes that were available when I started working in bike shops in the 1960’s, as long as they are assembled and adjusted correctly. Some of those bikes we sold during the original bike boom in the 1970’s were just god-awful- but they were lugged.
In gereral if folks in the lowest price ranges decide to get a bike they head over to Walmart or Dick’s and probably see the names they heard when they were a kid, Schwinn, Diamond Back, Mongoose, and all the no name Ozone’s. At a slightly higher price point people head to the local bike shop where they are introduced to sizing, purpose intended, and weight versus performance decisions. The only name they might have heard of is usually Trek. Giant? Specialized? nope. Not until you’re involved in the sport do you know all the brand names. And then advertising is peripheral compared to peer recommendations, online reviews, and other influencers.
And those folks headed to Walmart for a Schwinn are getting a significantly better bike than the cheap bikes that were available when I started working in bike shops in the 1960’s, as long as they are assembled and adjusted correctly. Some of those bikes we sold during the original bike boom in the 1970’s were just god-awful- but they were lugged.
#227
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Does anyone really think advertising has influenced bike purchases to any great extent? I mean, there has not been any push to advertise directly to consumers since the Schwinn days of Captain Kangaroo in the 60’s. Most recent advertising is pointed toward enthusiasts already well involved in the sport. How many TV commercials have you seen for bicycles compared to say toothpaste, or deodorant, or cars, or almost anything else.
In gereral if folks in the lowest price ranges decide to get a bike they head over to Walmart or Dick’s and probably see the names they heard when they were a kid, Schwinn, Diamond Back, Mongoose, and all the no name Ozone’s. At a slightly higher price point people head to the local bike shop where they are introduced to sizing, purpose intended, and weight versus performance decisions. The only name they might have heard of is usually Trek. Giant? Specialized? nope. Not until you’re involved in the sport do you know all the brand names. And then advertising is peripheral compared to peer recommendations, online reviews, and other influencers.
And those folks headed to Walmart for a Schwinn are getting a significantly better bike than the cheap bikes that were available when I started working in bike shops in the 1960’s, as long as they are assembled and adjusted correctly. Some of those bikes we sold during the original bike boom in the 1970’s were just god-awful- but they were lugged.
In gereral if folks in the lowest price ranges decide to get a bike they head over to Walmart or Dick’s and probably see the names they heard when they were a kid, Schwinn, Diamond Back, Mongoose, and all the no name Ozone’s. At a slightly higher price point people head to the local bike shop where they are introduced to sizing, purpose intended, and weight versus performance decisions. The only name they might have heard of is usually Trek. Giant? Specialized? nope. Not until you’re involved in the sport do you know all the brand names. And then advertising is peripheral compared to peer recommendations, online reviews, and other influencers.
And those folks headed to Walmart for a Schwinn are getting a significantly better bike than the cheap bikes that were available when I started working in bike shops in the 1960’s, as long as they are assembled and adjusted correctly. Some of those bikes we sold during the original bike boom in the 1970’s were just god-awful- but they were lugged.
I think OP doesn't recognize the difference between advertising and marketing. There's really a lot less ad-buying going on as no one buys magazines anymore, but most of the marketing marketing is through the interwebs at this point, and clearly the big brands do spend some money on that.
Meantime, Trek just bought out the biggest LBO chain in NH (3 locations, but been around forever), and I think this is a different form of marketing--integrating the online and the LBS.
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^^^ I'm sure it's sold a lot of Pelotons
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National advertising has a limited audience now. They are trying to reach...
1. Everyone (banks, car insurance, detergent, etc.)
2. People who are not on the Internet (could you have moderate to severe whateveritis? ask your doctor)
3. Fellow travelers (buy gold like our bought pundit just told you!)
4. Unemployed couch surfers (Peleton, trade school, etc)
Seems like everyone other than this is getting targeted advertising via social media, and you had better believe there is a ton of stuff coming up my Facebook feed. Some of it is just based on browsing (the latest I hit just now to find an example was Stages power meters) but there's some awful crap too. Right now there's someone pushing a bike whose carbon fiber frame does not have a seat tube
1. Everyone (banks, car insurance, detergent, etc.)
2. People who are not on the Internet (could you have moderate to severe whateveritis? ask your doctor)
3. Fellow travelers (buy gold like our bought pundit just told you!)
4. Unemployed couch surfers (Peleton, trade school, etc)
Seems like everyone other than this is getting targeted advertising via social media, and you had better believe there is a ton of stuff coming up my Facebook feed. Some of it is just based on browsing (the latest I hit just now to find an example was Stages power meters) but there's some awful crap too. Right now there's someone pushing a bike whose carbon fiber frame does not have a seat tube
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#231
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National advertising has a limited audience now. They are trying to reach...
1. Everyone (banks, car insurance, detergent, etc.)
2. People who are not on the Internet (could you have moderate to severe whateveritis? ask your doctor)
3. Fellow travelers (buy gold like our bought pundit just told you!)
4. Unemployed couch surfers (Peleton, trade school, etc)
Seems like everyone other than this is getting targeted advertising via social media, and you had better believe there is a ton of stuff coming up my Facebook feed. Some of it is just based on browsing (the latest I hit just now to find an example was Stages power meters) but there's some awful crap too. Right now there's someone pushing a bike whose carbon fiber frame does not have a seat tube
1. Everyone (banks, car insurance, detergent, etc.)
2. People who are not on the Internet (could you have moderate to severe whateveritis? ask your doctor)
3. Fellow travelers (buy gold like our bought pundit just told you!)
4. Unemployed couch surfers (Peleton, trade school, etc)
Seems like everyone other than this is getting targeted advertising via social media, and you had better believe there is a ton of stuff coming up my Facebook feed. Some of it is just based on browsing (the latest I hit just now to find an example was Stages power meters) but there's some awful crap too. Right now there's someone pushing a bike whose carbon fiber frame does not have a seat tube
6. People with teeth (mostly toothpaste).
7. People without teeth (Polident).
8. People who have forgotten what snake oil is (Prevagen).
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My understanding is manganese molybdenum steel (531, I have a 77 Jack Taylor tandem that's fillet brazed) cannot be welded (or welding would weaken it? any metallurgists?) But chrome moly can be welded without losing strength (Surly, etc.) As can plumbing pipe but that's weak, chrome moly and 531 have similar strength
So: lugs needed for molymang, not for chromemoly, either way, strength is similar, lugs would add weight to a chrome moly frame
As for carbon fiber, lookup the youtube guy who cuts frames in half, some are better made, bubbles etc (Trek was good.) Carbon (like steel,) strength and quality varies, you get what you pay for, is twice the price worth 20% better? your choice.
Sub kilo frame is possible in carbon, steel, alu but carbon stiffer.
So: lugs needed for molymang, not for chromemoly, either way, strength is similar, lugs would add weight to a chrome moly frame
As for carbon fiber, lookup the youtube guy who cuts frames in half, some are better made, bubbles etc (Trek was good.) Carbon (like steel,) strength and quality varies, you get what you pay for, is twice the price worth 20% better? your choice.
Sub kilo frame is possible in carbon, steel, alu but carbon stiffer.
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My understanding is manganese molybdenum steel (531, I have a 77 Jack Taylor tandem that's fillet brazed) cannot be welded (or welding would weaken it? any metallurgists?) But chrome moly can be welded without losing strength (Surly, etc.) As can plumbing pipe but that's weak, chrome moly and 531 have similar strength
So: lugs needed for molymang, not for chromemoly, either way, strength is similar, lugs would add weight to a chrome moly frame
As for carbon fiber, lookup the youtube guy who cuts frames in half, some are better made, bubbles etc (Trek was good.) Carbon (like steel,) strength and quality varies, you get what you pay for, is twice the price worth 20% better? your choice.
Sub kilo frame is possible in carbon, steel, alu but carbon stiffer.
So: lugs needed for molymang, not for chromemoly, either way, strength is similar, lugs would add weight to a chrome moly frame
As for carbon fiber, lookup the youtube guy who cuts frames in half, some are better made, bubbles etc (Trek was good.) Carbon (like steel,) strength and quality varies, you get what you pay for, is twice the price worth 20% better? your choice.
Sub kilo frame is possible in carbon, steel, alu but carbon stiffer.
#234
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You are quite right. My first full sized bike for quite a while weighed half of my weight. Riding the sucker on a gravel road into a 40 mile an hour March wind was a tussle.
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Most mass produced lugged steel frames from Europe up to the 80s were pretty crap. I currently have a Fuji and Raleigh both made in the early 80s and the Raleigh looks like it was made by school children. I have also had older French bikes and seen Italian bikes that very much agree with this.
Furthermore, a study was conducted by Keith Bontrager at UCSC that indicated that TIG welding resulted in a stronger steel frame than brazing. The durability of old frames compared to new frames, in my experience, reflects this.
Furthermore, a study was conducted by Keith Bontrager at UCSC that indicated that TIG welding resulted in a stronger steel frame than brazing. The durability of old frames compared to new frames, in my experience, reflects this.
It's a small point and I realize a well made frame transcends construction technique. My old racing Cannondale featured some of the ugliest welds you've ever seen but still managed to blow the doors off beautiful Italian super bikes of the day. In short, it's all good.
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This thread is good and interesting. But insults started to fly again and the thread cleaned up. Let’s keep discussions on topic, without insults, and without trolling please.
#237
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I love the steel bikes, but I'm scoring more PRs on the Canyon.
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Let's see:
okay, that's it. I scored a BOOMER BINGO!
where do I redeem my card?
- claiming older technology is better than anything new
- claiming "no point" to new tech, while remaining completely ignorant to how new tech was created
- completely ignorant of why there is demand for new tech
- included mandatory xenophobic rant about "Chinese" manufacturing (while typing on a device that no doubt contains components made in China)
- included mandatory derision towards "advertising"
- implies self-superiority (because surely OP hasn't been "led by the nose" by those insidious "advertisers" right?)
okay, that's it. I scored a BOOMER BINGO!
where do I redeem my card?
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Not sure anyone is insulting "older people." People here have been poking fun at a bunch of unsubstantiated prejudices offered up by a guy who claims that everything in the past was wonderful and went downhill, and who also claims that people are sheep, going wherever the advertising shepherd drives them (which is itself pretty insulting to everyone.)
The only "ageist" sort of comment int he post you highlighted was the "boomer bingo" line, and yeah, there are times when it actually fits and can be quite funny. it has a specific meaning about a specific class of people who have decided to remain stuck in the past and claim that nostalgia is fact, and if ti applies, how can people to which it applies complain?
People can call me old, fat, and slow, and is that supposed to be wrong? Not if you have ever seen me ... or waited for me on group rides.
The only "ageist" sort of comment int he post you highlighted was the "boomer bingo" line, and yeah, there are times when it actually fits and can be quite funny. it has a specific meaning about a specific class of people who have decided to remain stuck in the past and claim that nostalgia is fact, and if ti applies, how can people to which it applies complain?
People can call me old, fat, and slow, and is that supposed to be wrong? Not if you have ever seen me ... or waited for me on group rides.
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Just remember old people have decades of experience to base their opinions on. They have sorted out the real and the hype of advertising.
Dont get me wrong, advertising lets everyone know what is new and available. Then every individual should decide if what is being pushed is real or hype. New is not always better.
Dont get me wrong, advertising lets everyone know what is new and available. Then every individual should decide if what is being pushed is real or hype. New is not always better.
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Let's be honest, some old folks are old and wise, and some have wasted their lives believing the same crap they were told in high school, and some never mastered critical thinking and think they are smart but are just opinionated.
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And some people just pretend to be old.
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We still haven't seen the "proof of life" bent pics, have we?
#246
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Who among us can forget the famous "Nice Butt Weld" advertising campaign of 1997-2002?
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And in my case as a life long mechanical and electronic tech, I base my decisions on cold logic. Just because something is new, doesnt automatically make it better. It has to be proved better.
The best example that I can think of in this moment is CVT transmissions in some cars. They have been known to lunch themselves in less than 50 thousand miles. My nephew bought a car with one for his wife, and it destroyed itself at about 40K.
Last edited by rydabent; 08-28-20 at 09:33 PM.
#249
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Not a problem in my case.
And in my case as a life long mechanical and electronic tech, I base my decisions on cold logic. Just because something is new, doesnt automatically make it better. It has to be proved better.
The best example that I can think of in this moment is CVT transmissions in some cars. They have been known to lunch themselves in less than 50 thousand miles. My nephew bought a car with one for his wife, and it destroyed itself at about 40K.
And in my case as a life long mechanical and electronic tech, I base my decisions on cold logic. Just because something is new, doesnt automatically make it better. It has to be proved better.
The best example that I can think of in this moment is CVT transmissions in some cars. They have been known to lunch themselves in less than 50 thousand miles. My nephew bought a car with one for his wife, and it destroyed itself at about 40K.
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If this was true, you would have not said the dumb things above.
Last edited by njkayaker; 08-29-20 at 04:59 AM.