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Why are road and TT bikes so expensive?

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Why are road and TT bikes so expensive?

Old 09-16-20, 05:13 PM
  #26  
Koyote
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
Sure, but I don't understand why the comparison with not buying something entered this branch of the discussion. What I originally responded to was a comparison in relative affordability between two options in which something was purchased:

This is all that I was ever responding to.
I think we got our lines crossed, but we are in agreement. I was trying to make the point that, even if you can make a good return on a loan, financing a purchase does not make a purchase more affordable. The financing and the purchase need to regarded separately.
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Old 09-16-20, 05:53 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by dsaul
Trek Emonda SLR9 - $11,999 https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...e=bluedark_red

Honda CRF450R - $9,599 https://powersports.honda.com/off-ro...tition/crf450r

Some bikes are way overpriced. There is no way the cost of R&D plus manufacturing of a bicycle is more than a state of the art motocross bike.
Well actually, the costs of R&D + manufacturing for a top-of-the-line racing bicycle can be more than what is necessary for a "state of the art motocross bike," but even if they aren't, that doesn't mean the price of the bicycle should necessarily be lower. It sounds like you are really ignorant of the expenses that are needed to do effective polymer & materials science. Hiring well-educated professionals, keeping them happy in their working conditions among stiff, cross-industry competition, and sourcing all of the exotic materials necessary to make new resins has a lot of overhead involved, and that doesn't even account for the engineers who are going to tease out every bit of performance from the new materials the R&D scientists create for them. On top of all that, there are the numerous other factors that impact the cost of making bicycles, and we haven't even mentioned supply & demand yet!

So no, the Emonda SLR9 is not overpriced, it is priced consistently with any high-performance product in its category.
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Old 09-16-20, 05:58 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Sure, okay, as long as we acknowledge that this is far, far from BoraxKid 's scenario in which a person finances a purchase because he doesn't have the cash -- can we agree that does not make the purchase "more affordable"?
Except that financing is the very instrument that makes an item affordable when a person does not have enough cash on hand to buy it immediately. Again, if I cannot buy something today due to having insufficient funds, then it is not affordable: I literally cannot afford to make the purchase. However, if financing, allows me to make the purchase today, then financing made that item affordable: I was able to afford the purchase only through financing.

Once again, you put words in my mouth by asserting that I claimed financing made things cheaper, when I never actually said so. But hey, nice strawman.
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Old 09-16-20, 06:20 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
We're getting a bit OT here (though I'm not sure this thread ever HAD a topic), but if you need financing and monthly payments to buy a new bike, then it's not "affordable" for you.
Using that logic... no one who ever buys a new car (unless the pay the whole thing off in one cash payment) can afford a car.
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Old 09-16-20, 06:45 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
Except that financing is the very instrument that makes an item affordable when a person does not have enough cash on hand to buy it immediately. Again, if I cannot buy something today due to having insufficient funds, then it is not affordable: I literally cannot afford to make the purchase. However, if financing, allows me to make the purchase today, then financing made that item affordable: I was able to afford the purchase only through financing.

Once again, you put words in my mouth by asserting that I claimed financing made things cheaper, when I never actually said so. But hey, nice strawman.
If you work hard, BoraxKid, perhaps one day you'll be able to afford a new bike without a payment plan. Keep at it.

Originally Posted by Helldorado
Using that logic... no one who ever buys a new car (unless the pay the whole thing off in one cash payment) can afford a car.
Cars often get people to their jobs, which pay money. There's a big difference between borrowing money for car and borrowing money to buy a TT bike.
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Old 09-16-20, 07:10 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
If you work hard, BoraxKid, perhaps one day you'll be able to afford a new bike without a payment plan. Keep at it.



Cars often get people to their jobs, which pay money. There's a big difference between borrowing money for car and borrowing money to buy a TT bike.
Yes but that's not the point. The original assertion was that if one has to take out a loan to make the purchase then the purchase is not really affordable. Doesn't matter why one is taking out the loan - if one cannot pay cash then one cannot afford it. Also, consider how much extra money a year people pay to maintain and insure their cars, not to mention fuel. That's even less affordable.
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Old 09-16-20, 07:17 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Helldorado
Yes but that's not the point. The original assertion was that if one has to take out a loan to make the purchase then the purchase is not really affordable. Doesn't matter why one is taking out the loan - if one cannot pay cash then one cannot afford it. Also, consider how much extra money a year people pay to maintain and insure their cars, not to mention fuel. That's even less affordable.
This was my original assertion: " but if you need financing and monthly payments to buy a new bike, then it's not "affordable" for you."

I added the emphasis so that you wouldn't miss it this time.
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Old 09-16-20, 08:29 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
Except that financing is the very instrument that makes an item affordable when a person does not have enough cash on hand to buy it immediately. Again, if I cannot buy something today due to having insufficient funds, then it is not affordable: I literally cannot afford to make the purchase. However, if financing, allows me to make the purchase today, then financing made that item affordable: I was able to afford the purchase only through financing.

Once again, you put words in my mouth by asserting that I claimed financing made things cheaper, when I never actually said so. But hey, nice strawman.
It makes it available, not affordable. The price did not change.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:40 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I tried, but I couldn't make it halfway through the video. Honestly, if your perspective is that $3000 is a low-end bike, and you have so many expensive bikes that you're using an expensive TT bike as a trainer, the whole exercise seems like a chance for you to brag about the cost of your toys.


This is quickly going to degenerate into one of those "what's the right amount to spend on a bike" threads, AKA "snob vs. slob".
Haha, you're probably right, it might appear that way. I ride with many people who have $8,000+ bikes, so my 'lowly' $3,000 bike, is near the bottom end. Additionally, when I go the triathlons and scope out the other bikes, I feel like everyone is riding a $10,000+ bike, which mine is no where near that. So, I didn't think I had anything to brag with, but thanks for making me feel better about my toys.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:41 PM
  #35  
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Y'all realize you're just arguing about the definition of the word "affordable" , right?
That people can acquire more expensive goods immediately if they can amortize the costs is not exactly a controversial point. The advantage is that you can use the item while you're paying for it. It's the basic principle behind mortgages and car loans. Obviously, a bike loan is more like a car loan than a mortgage as there's virtually a certainty that the value of the item will depreciate while you are paying for it, so no one is under the delusion that financing a bike is going to increase their wealth.

Pointless thread begets pointless argument.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:48 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Pointless thread begets pointless argument.
Pretty sure that was their point.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:51 PM
  #37  
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If someone doesn't have the cash to buy a big-ticket item today, but they can buy it with financing today, then the item was made affordable because of financing.
Actually, if you finance a purchase, the cost of financing almost always makes the purchase more expensive, even if it seems 'more affordable.' Most lenders want to get rich from lending.

Even if you have cash in hand to buy something now, you'll nearly always end up richer in the long run if you dump the money into reasonably-safe investments and then pay the cost of the item later.
Given that you have to pay the cost of borrowing and investing, making money from arbitrage is harder than you think, unless you're the one getting paid interest and fees.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:52 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by brunes83
Haha, you're probably right, it might appear that way. I ride with many people who have $8,000+ bikes, so my 'lowly' $3,000 bike, is near the bottom end. Additionally, when I go the triathlons and scope out the other bikes, I feel like everyone is riding a $10,000+ bike, which mine is no where near that. So, I didn't think I had anything to brag with, but thanks for making me feel better about my toys.

That's a good example of why the video is so pointless, it doesn't seem to be aimed at any particular audience. If you consider $3000 bikes "low end", you already know the info in it, and if you consider them expensive, it's likely because you don't care about the marginal improvements you might realize by spending more than $3000, so you really won't care about what he's saying.

Once he said he wasn't going to talk about the cost of his tt bike, it became obvious that he was just bragging about the costs of his second and third bikes.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:54 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Fahrenheit531
Pretty sure that was their point.
Really? That's a lot of posts making that point, and they sure seem to think they're arguing about something.
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Old 09-17-20, 05:53 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions

Once he said he wasn't going to talk about the cost of his tt bike, it became obvious that he was just bragging about the costs of his second and third bikes.
If I had a $3000 bike, I'd have a hard time not mentioning it in every post too.
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Old 09-17-20, 07:29 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy
If I had a $3000 bike, I'd have a hard time not mentioning it in every post too.
Money is like sex: the more someone talks about it, the less he has.
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Old 09-17-20, 10:01 AM
  #42  
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The answer to the title question----------------marketing.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:02 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Outrider1
It makes it available, not affordable. The price did not change.
No, that's not how affording something works. To afford something, you must be able to purchase it. In the absence of financing, if I do not have enough cash to purchase an item, then I literally cannot afford that item; I am unable to purchase it. However, with financing, I can purchase the item; ergo, financing makes the item affordable by lowering the price I need to pay at the time of purchase. The item was always available for purchase, but my ability to purchase--literally my ability to afford it--changes based on the availability of financing.

Where Koyote is getting wrapped around the axle on this topic is in regards to financing a bicycle. I never said that anyone needs financing to buy a bike, but that didn't stop Koyote from falsely attributing those words to me. Regardless, it does not change the fact that financing, for any item, makes the item more affordable because financing lowers the barrier to entry for the purchase--it reduces the out-of-pocket expense on the day of purchase, for the minor premium of paying a small amount of interest later.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:21 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
No, that's not how affording something works. To afford something, you must be able to purchase it. In the absence of financing, if I do not have enough cash to purchase an item, then I literally cannot afford that item; I am unable to purchase it. However, with financing, I can purchase the item; ergo, financing makes the item affordable by lowering the price I need to pay at the time of purchase. The item was always available for purchase, but my ability to purchase--literally my ability to afford it--changes based on the availability of financing.
It makes no difference. You could just as easily put money into savings every month, and then buy the bike later without financing the purchase. Financing doesn't make the bike more affordable, it just lets you purchase the bike now.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:26 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
No, that's not how affording something works. To afford something, you must be able to purchase it. In the absence of financing, if I do not have enough cash to purchase an item, then I literally cannot afford that item; I am unable to purchase it. However, with financing, I can purchase the item; ergo, financing makes the item affordable by lowering the price I need to pay at the time of purchase. The item was always available for purchase, but my ability to purchase--literally my ability to afford it--changes based on the availability of financing.
Credit cards must represent an especially vexxing dilemma to you.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:28 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
it just lets you purchase the bike now.
If it changes my ability to make the purchase now, then financing makes the item affordable now.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:29 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy
Credit cards must represent an especially vexxing dilemma to you.
No, not at all. Credit cards are pretty simple instruments to understand and use. What do you find confusing about them?
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Old 09-17-20, 11:32 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid
If it changes my ability to make the purchase now, then financing makes the item affordable now.
That certainly helps to explain the consumer debt crisis in the U.S.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:44 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It makes no difference. You could just as easily put money into savings every month, and then buy the bike later without financing the purchase. Financing doesn't make the bike more affordable, it just lets you purchase the bike now.

Again, this is just an argument about the word "affordable". Guess what? Words can have more than one meaning, and you two are using the word slightly differently. Big whoop.

Just to muddy the waters more, "afford" has two entirely distinct definitions. Just to use the other one, if I can acquire the bike now, I can now afford myself of its virtues. If I have to defer the purchase until I can make payment in full, I may be delayed in affording myself of its virtues and may not be able to acquire it until I'm too old to fully make use of those virtues.

Much as I love the blatant oversimplification of microecon 101 concepts, ignoring that the availability of financing can reorder people's priorities by spreading out the opportunity costs so they don't impinge on necessities and also ignoring time without use as a cost in and of itself are some real howlers.
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Old 09-17-20, 11:49 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
That certainly helps to explain the consumer debt crisis in the U.S.

Credit can be abused. Film at 11. People can also misspend large sums of cash they've built up. It actually happens a lot, there's a whole class of criminals who prey on people who do that.
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