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Practical limits of friction shifting? 7-8-9-10-11...

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Practical limits of friction shifting? 7-8-9-10-11...

Old 11-13-19, 12:45 PM
  #26  
79pmooney
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Originally Posted by due ruote
Anyone know how wide a cassette Simplex Retrofrictions will handle? The barrel is smaller than most on those, so more lever movement is required to shift. So I am thinking you might have more feel on closely spaced cogs. But I don’t know if they have the range. Have only used them with 6-speed.
The derailleur you plan to use matters a lot here. I haven't documented my RDs but I have significantly more lever travel (to almost 180 with a Campy Mirage relative to the several SunTours that preceded it. Flip side is that more lever travel is nice when shifting tightly spaced cogs.

I'll bet that Sheldon Brown's website lists cassette widths. Comparing 7 and 9, 10 or 11 cog cassettes (if you know where the Simplex lever goes to with the 7-speed) should give you an idea if the Simplex will work.

Ben
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Old 11-13-19, 09:33 PM
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I friction shift my Bianchi. Front der, rear der crankset are Campy 10, cassette and chain are Campy nine speed. DT shifters are Campy from the 1980s (don’t know the group set). I have a set of Veloce brifters Campy 10-speed chain and cassette in the Campy box. I had intended to upgrade drivetrain to all ten speed when the nine speed parts wear out, but I’m enjoying the retro-ness of DT friction shifting.
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Old 11-13-19, 09:48 PM
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I've got to stop relying on my memory. I said Mavic but they are Simplex shifters. Let me post pics of the setup vs trusting my confused old mind.

Shifters:



RD:



Mobic Crank:



Not sure what chain is on it but it's a "cobbled together" one. This rough old bike is what of the few banished to the garage since it's a bad weather bike normally. Otherwise I'd look and see, but it's cold out there right now and the bike is suspended 12 feet up.
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Old 11-14-19, 09:27 AM
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I have a 1980s Univega, with a 10 speed Campagnolo wheel & cassette, with an old Suntour Cyclone RD, and Triomphe downtube shifters.
Works fine.
It has a bit of trouble reaching the largest cog. I just filed down the "stop" a bit which gives it a tiny bit more travel which I think helps.
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Old 11-14-19, 11:12 AM
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This last friction combo I tried that fails me, its a modern sunrace 8 spd cassette with an all original 6 spd bike. I'll try lube and adjusting it up, but I think based on the feedback in this thread it it may just be me.

The thought crossed my mind to grab one of the ubiquitous 7spd mtb cassettes and chop off the low gear... I may try that in index mode just for kicks. I ordered a pack of spacers to get 7's onto the wider freehubs, should come in any day.
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Old 11-14-19, 11:23 AM
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I would run 11's if I could get it to work, but I can't even shift 8!
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Old 11-14-19, 01:12 PM
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8 was the max for me and it was just ok--being finicky. That experience was with normal Campy SR shifters and rear derailleur together with a Sram chain and 8 speed Ultegra cassette. I only had one bike at that time and when the rear 6 speed wheel broke, I needed to replace it quickly with what was available. Today, my 9 and 10 speed bikes are indexed. No need to mess around.
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Old 11-14-19, 03:02 PM
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When I introduced mrs non-fixie to downtube shifters a couple of years ago, I threw her in at the deep end: Huret Allvit with a five-speed Maillard FW. Within a few miles she was working that combo like she'd never used anything else. CLUNK! Done. CLUNK-CLUNK! Done. CLUNK-CLUNK-CLUNK! Done.

Rather industrial to behold, but very effective.

These days she mainly rides her DeVos, with a 7-speed FW and Shimano 6207 friction ....



... or her Méral with a 6-speed FW and SunTour Vx-GT friction (note the ingenious shape of that dropout, BTW):



She likes both, especially the way the Vx shifts, but both setups require a lot more trimming than the Allvit.
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Old 11-14-19, 09:22 PM
  #34  
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I have a fun MTB I ride at times and it has either Dura Ace 9-speed bar-end shifters or Ultegra 8-speed shifters on it shifting a 9 speed 11-19 teeth corncob cassette in friction mode. I need to check it sometime and see if it's the 8-speed or 9-speed shifters on it.

Cheers
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Old 11-15-19, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by due ruote
Anyone know how wide a cassette Simplex Retrofrictions will handle? The barrel is smaller than most on those, so more lever movement is required to shift. So I am thinking you might have more feel on closely spaced cogs. But I don’t know if they have the range. Have only used them with 6-speed.
I know they work with 7-speed, but nothing higher, on my DeRosa.
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Old 11-15-19, 06:44 AM
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3 X 8 here with Shimano RSX, Deore LX, Deore XT, Altus and Alivio.
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Old 11-15-19, 12:38 PM
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Not that you asked, but I've been doing the opposite lately. I have a bike with 10-speed indexed shifting and am using a 7-speed freewheel. I'm surprised at how well it works. Sometimes I have to double-click to get one shift, but it's OK.
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Old 11-18-19, 12:44 PM
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Campagnolo and Dia Come 11s

Currently 11s Potenza with Ene Ciclo 11s DT shifters. Smooth and no issues with friction. Just took time to get use to amount to move lever.
Upgrade for vintage Eroica rider.
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Old 11-18-19, 01:54 PM
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1.5 x 10 with SunTour BarCons

On my '72 Holdsworth and '85 Trek 720 I'm shifting 11-34 10 speed cassettes with mid-priced 9 speed Shimano RDs and SunTour BarCons. IMHO they shift better with 10 speeds than they did with 9. I have the tension on the shifters set very light, so the levers move smoothly. I suspect that lateral play in the jockey wheel is sufficient that with narrow spaced gears you are always in one gear or another. 11-34 works for me because useful rpm range is so much wider with short cranks (mine are 153mm) that there is no need for closer ratios.



IIRC someone on iBob is shifting 11 sp. with Siver Shifters.


Both bikes are set up as "1.5 by" with one mid sized ring and a granny ring that is just for emergencies. All season I only used the one on the Trek twice and I haven't needed it on the Holdsworth. This beats the heck out of having bigger jumps and an 11-46 and one ring. Some folks are even running an N/W ring and no FD but have a granny ring they could shift to manually.
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Old 11-18-19, 02:17 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by SkyWave
Currently 11s Potenza with Ene Ciclo 11s DT shifters. Smooth and no issues with friction. Just took time to get use to amount to move lever.
Upgrade for vintage Eroica rider.
This and noglider's experience are interesting data points for sure!

Narrower chains and a nice, slick cable run can make all the difference!

Sometimes even switching chain brand can make a huuuge difference, often works for me when I change to a Shimano 9s or 10s chain.

Pulling out all the stops so to speak, one can do a number of little tweaks to help with compatibility between different parts system components:
1) Narrower chain, Shimano chain especially.
2) Added bevels to cog teeth (especially on last-from-the-end cog positions).
3) Tuned-up, compressionless cable/housing using shorter housing lengths.
4) Adjusting axle spacing to center the cog stack within the happy range of the derailer's travel.
5) Increasing the cable travel using plastic sleeve over the cable at the shift lever spool.
6) Changing the cable path at the derailer pinch bolt to effect a different "actuation ratio" or cage travel.
7) Altering chain length and/or rear axle position to alter the proximity of the top pulley to the cog stack.
8) Altering (grinding) internal parts of the rear derailer to increase it's travel in perhaps both directions.
9) Adjusting the A- or B-pivot (cage pivot or mounting pivot) spring tensions using any provided threaded adjusters/locknuts (or adding a re-positioned anchor hole for the spring as in last photo, or perhaps hyper-extending a pivot spring to relax it slightly.

With so many possibilities, there is always hope of getting any setup to work ever-better.


I actually had to use most of the above in order to get three of my Schwinns to shift sportingly over a standard-width six-speed freewheel using three different variations of French Allvit derailers. Works like a champ using Schwinn's Twin-Stik levers with their generous length and their clever pivot being offset well ahead of the stem quill.

On another bike, a Torelli, I only had to substitute a Shimano 9s chain for the Synchro-II index levers to suddenly play nice with the SIS-7-spaced Sunrace freewheel. The proper freewheel for the Synchro-II levers was a Regina 7s but which I couldn't find with my preferred ratios.

One of the things about "friction" shifting is that shifting toward larger cogs can be indexed to a degree by the tendency of the outer cage plate to momentarily pinch the chain between the cage plate and the next-larger cog than the one you are shifting to. This stops the derailer's motion at just the right spot for a fast(!) and perfect no-trim shift, but only if the top pulley is adjusted quite close to the freewheel/cassette with a very short chain gap.
I find that on the bikes that are so adjusted, that I can palm-slap the right lever downward with extremely trim-free results that allow me to resume vigorous pedaling within an instant. And, if I push the lever for a longer period, that the derailer tends to index 2, 3 or more shifts toward larger cogs in the same manner.

Pic's below showing a perfected 6s Allvit setup; Schwinn's offset-pivot "stem" levers; the Synchro-II Torelli; and a modified Gran Turismo pivot tension drilling.




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Old 11-18-19, 03:17 PM
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I have a Trek 770 that still has the original Suntour Superbe friction shifters and the Superbe derailers running 8 speed using older Ksyrium SL wheels. Works great. It's the only bike I've left as friction.
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Old 11-18-19, 03:38 PM
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A Centurion I built & sold had an Ultegra front & a Claris (RD-4703?) rear derailleur driven by Suntour down tube friction shifters. It shifted the 10 speed cassette triple crankset beautifully.

I concur with the upthread claims about the smaller barrel/greater lever travel being a positive when it comes to tightly spaced cassettes.
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Old 11-20-19, 11:11 AM
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practical limits of friction shifting

I set up a 1985 Bianchi Stelvio for this year’s Eroica, using the original Campy cranks, shifters and RD. In order to get the gearing I needed for the seated climbing on gravel that I knew I’d need to do, I thought I’d try to “push the practical limits of friction shifting” (see OP) without making any more mods to the original equipment than absolutely necessary.

I modified the cranks with a Red Clover “triplerizer” second ring and a 24-tooth third chainring. I substituted one of Shimano’s “megarange” 7-speed freewheels for the factory 6-speed. This required a wider (threadless) bottom bracket to get the chain line right and a longer cage (Suntour) FD to move the chain over three chainrings. In order to get the required chain wrap, I equipped the original Triomfe S3 RD with a long derailleur cage from SOMA Fabrications.

Did it work? The resulting 19 gear inches proved low enough for seated climbing on the steep gravel Strade Bianche of Chianti. The shifting was cumbersome but manageable. The original Campy levers moved enough cable for the required shifts and the Shimano freewheel shifted on and off that massive 34 tooth bailout gear with surprising ease. The repeated bone shaking descents however caused the RD limit screws to back out, allowing the chain to jam repeatedly. My fatigue-induced stupidity aggravated the problem of course.

Do I recommend a similar setup? Not on your life. Just for openers, there was no tech inspection. There was only a guy standing in the packed crowd before the start, glancing casually at everyone’s bike. Not surprisingly, there were a lot of suspiciously modern looking bikes with multi-speed cassettes and modern brakes. Oh how I envied those brakes. My original equipment Modolos are good enough for most purposes, but a little more modulation on those white-knuckle gravel descents would have been most welcome.

If I decide to do this again, I’ll probably set up a bike with a modern retro crankset like the one sold by Velo Orange that comes with the ramps and pins required for faultless shifting and a somewhat more modern RD. I’m 78, so the more ambitious gearing that a double crank would require is sadly beyond my capabilities on Eroica terrain.
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Old 11-20-19, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
When I used Shimano 6200 in friction on a 9sp, it worked great, but took a dainty touch, compared to the old "give it a measured nudge" method. I tried building a 10-sp friction setup, but it seemed like hiccupping shifted the bike.
Yes...x2

I just want an honest review of the new micro ratchet dia compe shifters.
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Old 11-20-19, 02:25 PM
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I run my modern road bike wheels in my tall bike, 10 speed wheel with a MTB derailleur from 2008 with a suntour thumb shifter from 1988. It shifts just fine IMO, BUT as I have a thumb shifter I can move my shifter a lot more precisely than a downtube shifter...

I don't have good pics of it handy, but here is the left grip, I have a triple on the bike, the bike actually has an %805 gear range LMAO!! Yea, it'll climb STEEP hills, and it goes over 50 MPH on descents just fine.

Some pics from a trip up to "Onion valley" from this past spring, this is according to some the most difficult legal road climb in North America, 5,200' in 12 miles.



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Old 11-20-19, 02:54 PM
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I have friction shifting of 9s on my old Colnago.
Vintage Campagnolo NR downtube shifters X Shimano Ultegra (6500?) rear derailleur.
It works very well, and shifts better than 5s or 6s ever did. However, with the pull, it does essentially full tube to tube movements of the shifter for the rear.

I also have tried 11s friction shifting on my Jamis.
11s MTB XTR Rear Derailleur.
Tried vintage Suntour and Shimano bar-end shifters. The Suntour shifters don't have enough range of movement. I will probably try to modify the shifters for greater range of motion.
The Shimano shifters do have adequate pull, but they aren't designed for the full range of motion. They will barely work, but on the high end (small sprocket), one has to over-shift them, and there is too much spring tension, and the derailleur tends to pop back. I think the opposite was true at the low range (large sprocket). Not enough tension in the shifters, and too much in the derailleur, and it still didn't hold.

Overall, thoiugh, for the mid-range gears, it worked very nicely.

Note, the 11s Shimano MTB has a lot more cable pull than other Shimano shifters, so more space between gears.
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Old 11-20-19, 03:00 PM
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10-speed DA bar ends on my TT bike. Works great.
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Old 11-21-19, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
Not that you asked, but I've been doing the opposite lately. I have a bike with 10-speed indexed shifting and am using a 7-speed freewheel. I'm surprised at how well it works. Sometimes I have to double-click to get one shift, but it's OK.
Likewise, I am temporarily running a 10 sp dynasis Microshift thumbshifter on an 8sp cassette and derailleur. There is only one double shift in index mode (in the middle of the cluster). In friction mode its all dandy. FWIW, the dynasis thumbies have a larger diameter barrel, almost like the XT thumbies of old, larger than the smaller diameter Suntour types.
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Old 11-22-19, 09:13 AM
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Dia Campe ene ciclo 10 speed ratchets with Cyclone MK II and SRAM 10 speed chain and cassette. Works beautifully now that the derailleur hanger has been aligned.
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Old 01-17-24, 01:08 PM
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I've used Dia Compe Wing shifters on a Shimano 8s 11-32 cassette and it shifts really smooth.

I encourage you to try these Dia Compe shifters with micro-ratcheting as they're absolutely gorgeous !

Once you're used to it, you nearly don't trim . . .
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