Pay more OR train harder??
03-25-19, 05:51 PM
#26
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To the OP: At 140lbs (did I do the math correctly) you are on the small side, which means that losing weight from the bike will have a bigger percentage gain on W/kg than if you were a bigger rider. That said, I too am a smaller rider, but don't notice any difference in my climbing speed with or without an an extra water bottle (500g). Ultimately, unless you have are really reaching a fitness plateau, I think that you can likely make bigger gains with a training plan than with a new bike.
I am not discouraging the purchase of a new bike. I just don't want you to be disappointed if that the new bike doesn't turn you into a faster cyclist.
I am not discouraging the purchase of a new bike. I just don't want you to be disappointed if that the new bike doesn't turn you into a faster cyclist.
03-25-19, 06:49 PM
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I sign up for race. This is triathlon distance 56 miles 4500 ft climbing.
The climb is something I never did before, but I hope I have enough time to train for it.
I think my problem could be my bike. I got old Cannondale at about 18-19lb
I am planing to get at least new cassette 11-32 that hopefully will go well with 36/50 crank.
However, at my current miserable FTP 220W 3.45 W/kg - I am afraid it still will be hard.
I was naturally thinking about new bike and I like Emonda, that I did test ride yesterday
I liked the ride quality a lot, the bike feels stiff and it dampens the road really well.
The new bike is about 3lb lighter than mine, which is a lot.
The problem is not only the new bike price, about $3000 with aluminum wheels,
but the fit. I like my saddle really high, the tech said that this is because I have longer legs (I am not buying it completely but it could be true)
He said that he cannot do the same height on frame size 50, it will be about 5mm lower. Because of that they are trying to talk me into
another frame size 52. But i feel a little stretched over size 52. Maybe I will get use to it, but I hate short stems.
They also have offered an option to buy just the frame and transfer all we can from the old bike components Ultegra 6800.
But it is not getting much cheaper: all new components they will install are overpriced,
for example Bontrager brake set is about $300, but I can buy the same Ultegra for much less.
The same thing about RD, they say need new pulleys and price them at $100 or something. - I can buy new RD for that price.
They give me a good deal on the frame itself though, about $1100 - but only if I will build the bike with them. Which is not a good deal.
I would save a couple hundreds, but not much.
I have looked around for ebay or used Emondas but could not see the one I can confidently buy.
So, the first problem I have is proper fit: 50 or 52? My current CAAD frame is 51
The test ride I did was 52, the store did not have size 50 in stock. It felt ok, but I like to get lower in the drops. maybe removing all spacers and flipping the stem will fix it, but I have to try
The fitters I have seen in the past always trying to get me into larger frame.
Another problem that $3000 is way over my budget that I want to spend.
I can keep looking for a used frame, but I would like to be confident that I can buy, fit and get used to the new frame before the race.
I can always buy Aliexpress frame, but I am not sure if it will replicate Emonda ride quality.
Or may be I just need to train harder
Just want to hear your opinions on frame, fit, build, new bike and what would you do, or how much would you spend on it
Thanks!!!
The climb is something I never did before, but I hope I have enough time to train for it.
I think my problem could be my bike. I got old Cannondale at about 18-19lb
I am planing to get at least new cassette 11-32 that hopefully will go well with 36/50 crank.
However, at my current miserable FTP 220W 3.45 W/kg - I am afraid it still will be hard.
I was naturally thinking about new bike and I like Emonda, that I did test ride yesterday
I liked the ride quality a lot, the bike feels stiff and it dampens the road really well.
The new bike is about 3lb lighter than mine, which is a lot.
The problem is not only the new bike price, about $3000 with aluminum wheels,
but the fit. I like my saddle really high, the tech said that this is because I have longer legs (I am not buying it completely but it could be true)
He said that he cannot do the same height on frame size 50, it will be about 5mm lower. Because of that they are trying to talk me into
another frame size 52. But i feel a little stretched over size 52. Maybe I will get use to it, but I hate short stems.
They also have offered an option to buy just the frame and transfer all we can from the old bike components Ultegra 6800.
But it is not getting much cheaper: all new components they will install are overpriced,
for example Bontrager brake set is about $300, but I can buy the same Ultegra for much less.
The same thing about RD, they say need new pulleys and price them at $100 or something. - I can buy new RD for that price.
They give me a good deal on the frame itself though, about $1100 - but only if I will build the bike with them. Which is not a good deal.
I would save a couple hundreds, but not much.
I have looked around for ebay or used Emondas but could not see the one I can confidently buy.
So, the first problem I have is proper fit: 50 or 52? My current CAAD frame is 51
The test ride I did was 52, the store did not have size 50 in stock. It felt ok, but I like to get lower in the drops. maybe removing all spacers and flipping the stem will fix it, but I have to try
The fitters I have seen in the past always trying to get me into larger frame.
Another problem that $3000 is way over my budget that I want to spend.
I can keep looking for a used frame, but I would like to be confident that I can buy, fit and get used to the new frame before the race.
I can always buy Aliexpress frame, but I am not sure if it will replicate Emonda ride quality.
Or may be I just need to train harder
Just want to hear your opinions on frame, fit, build, new bike and what would you do, or how much would you spend on it
Thanks!!!
Your gut seems to be telling you to go way over budget on a new bike based upon the questionable fit advice you received from a bicycle salesman.
That sounds about right to me. Go for it!
Maybe they will finance it for 24 months at 18% APR.
Then it’s a no-brainer
03-25-19, 08:37 PM
#28
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Thanks everyone for your input!
I will try to answer all your questions, sorry if I skip something you wanted to know.
About the race: Another problem with climbs (that I have no great experience) is that they will come with some descents. This is another reason why I have decided to use my roat bike, not TT that I already have.
Bah Humbug has mentioned Alohaman race, but that profile has steady climb, and steady descent. My race is different, there are small-medium-large climbs all over the distance. The organizers recommend road bike over TT.
My TT is heavier, but I can ride in aero position for hours. Since the race has elevations, I am not sure that dish/wheel cover will be very effective, I do not think my speed will be much greater than 18 MPH, and at this speed as I understand aero gains are minimal.
Yes, I can swim humbly, not at 1:30 pace, but comfortably at 1:40 - it should make me out of the water in 35-40 min, not longer.
I will start my training program in about couple of weeks, the bike will be about 50% of the time, weekly load would be about 11-12 hrs. Yes, I can always increase it, but I do not want to overtrain or get injured.
Lighter bike is not about saving time on the bike itself, but spend less - preserve more for the run. From the race profile the run is hard and hilly too, about 1000 ft elevation climb.
About the bike: This CAAD 8-6 - At that time they did make size 51. I bought it more than 10 years ago, it came originally with Sora-Tiagra, but I was replacing the parts, so now it is mostly Ultegra. I am surprised to hear that 3lb is not a big deal! I have great respect to you guys! Because I can actually feel, and confirm that it is easier to me to ride without tool bag and water bottles, when I do very short rides.
I do have some good aluminum wheels - Psimet built them. I am planning to use them as they brake better than carbon.
About me: I am 5'6" (169cm) tall, my jeans inseam is 30-32, does it make my legs long? I do not know.
My normal weight is 137-138, for the races I would go down to 135, but anything less than 135 make me feel not right. like something is missing ))) I would not go lower, just not healthy for me.
My FTP never was great, few years ago I did rich 240, but I was at 145lb at that time. It is around 220Wt for quite some time. Getting 5 Wt more before the race may be possible, but definitely not 10 Wt.
About "new" bike:
I like Emonda because it is very light and the ride quality as I mentioned.
I dont want aero bike, since I already have TT if I need it. For that reason I do not want Madone or Tarmac.
I' like to get a bike that I will enjoy after my races are over.
Is there another bike that is lighter and more affordable? I do not know.
Unfortunately, Trek cannot get taller seatpost, since Emonda has integrated seatpost. The mast cannot be lifted higher for safety reasons if I understand the guy correctly.
Generally I am calm about new bike. Of course I will keep my eye on eBay and Craigslist,
not sure if there is something else but Emonda?
Well, I hope we all understand that if I am to buy a new $3000 bike - I will keep it for much longer than just the race day
I can promise you, if I will manage to get it, it will be mine for years to come )) the race is a good reason to buy it now )
If I get a new bike reasonably soon, then it is good. if not, then so be it. I will race and ride my old bike.
I will consider new pair of wheels, but I think in my case I don't have to put the cart in front of the horse. I already have good custom built wheels. At this time new frame or bike would be priority.
And of course, I will not stop training for the event. Hopefully I will not finish at the back of the pack.
I will try to answer all your questions, sorry if I skip something you wanted to know.
About the race: Another problem with climbs (that I have no great experience) is that they will come with some descents. This is another reason why I have decided to use my roat bike, not TT that I already have.
Bah Humbug has mentioned Alohaman race, but that profile has steady climb, and steady descent. My race is different, there are small-medium-large climbs all over the distance. The organizers recommend road bike over TT.
My TT is heavier, but I can ride in aero position for hours. Since the race has elevations, I am not sure that dish/wheel cover will be very effective, I do not think my speed will be much greater than 18 MPH, and at this speed as I understand aero gains are minimal.
Yes, I can swim humbly, not at 1:30 pace, but comfortably at 1:40 - it should make me out of the water in 35-40 min, not longer.
I will start my training program in about couple of weeks, the bike will be about 50% of the time, weekly load would be about 11-12 hrs. Yes, I can always increase it, but I do not want to overtrain or get injured.
Lighter bike is not about saving time on the bike itself, but spend less - preserve more for the run. From the race profile the run is hard and hilly too, about 1000 ft elevation climb.
About the bike: This CAAD 8-6 - At that time they did make size 51. I bought it more than 10 years ago, it came originally with Sora-Tiagra, but I was replacing the parts, so now it is mostly Ultegra. I am surprised to hear that 3lb is not a big deal! I have great respect to you guys! Because I can actually feel, and confirm that it is easier to me to ride without tool bag and water bottles, when I do very short rides.
I do have some good aluminum wheels - Psimet built them. I am planning to use them as they brake better than carbon.
About me: I am 5'6" (169cm) tall, my jeans inseam is 30-32, does it make my legs long? I do not know.
My normal weight is 137-138, for the races I would go down to 135, but anything less than 135 make me feel not right. like something is missing ))) I would not go lower, just not healthy for me.
My FTP never was great, few years ago I did rich 240, but I was at 145lb at that time. It is around 220Wt for quite some time. Getting 5 Wt more before the race may be possible, but definitely not 10 Wt.
About "new" bike:
I like Emonda because it is very light and the ride quality as I mentioned.
I dont want aero bike, since I already have TT if I need it. For that reason I do not want Madone or Tarmac.
I' like to get a bike that I will enjoy after my races are over.
Is there another bike that is lighter and more affordable? I do not know.
Unfortunately, Trek cannot get taller seatpost, since Emonda has integrated seatpost. The mast cannot be lifted higher for safety reasons if I understand the guy correctly.
Generally I am calm about new bike. Of course I will keep my eye on eBay and Craigslist,
not sure if there is something else but Emonda?
Well, I hope we all understand that if I am to buy a new $3000 bike - I will keep it for much longer than just the race day
I can promise you, if I will manage to get it, it will be mine for years to come )) the race is a good reason to buy it now )If I get a new bike reasonably soon, then it is good. if not, then so be it. I will race and ride my old bike.
I will consider new pair of wheels, but I think in my case I don't have to put the cart in front of the horse. I already have good custom built wheels. At this time new frame or bike would be priority.
And of course, I will not stop training for the event. Hopefully I will not finish at the back of the pack.
03-26-19, 03:18 AM
#29
Pizzaiolo Americano
Go to another Trek Dealer. If that is the Emonda SL6 with rim brakes, you should be out the door at about 18% off retail. That puts it at significantly less than 3000.00. Also, if you look at the geometry on geometrygeeks, you will find out that the stack and reach between your CAAD and th e 52 Emonda is pretty close, meaning you should be able to get in to your preferred position on either...
https://geometrygeeks.bike/compare/t...caad8-2013-51/
https://geometrygeeks.bike/compare/t...caad8-2013-51/
Last edited by Pizzaiolo Americano; 03-26-19 at 03:22 AM.
03-26-19, 07:47 AM
#30
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FWIW, unless a triathlon is really really hilly (like 100 feet per mile) then you're still better off on a TT or tri bike than road bike.
There's solid data to prove it and a GTN youtube video on the topic.
Your best bet is to keep what you got and buy a set of $35 clip-on aero bars. The added weight uphill of a few ounces will be more than won back in aero on the flats, downhill, and even up false flats.
There's solid data to prove it and a GTN youtube video on the topic.
Your best bet is to keep what you got and buy a set of $35 clip-on aero bars. The added weight uphill of a few ounces will be more than won back in aero on the flats, downhill, and even up false flats.
03-26-19, 08:04 AM
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Thanks for the website, i did not know about it. It will make easy to compare two bikes
Go to another Trek Dealer. If that is the Emonda SL6 with rim brakes, you should be out the door at about 18% off retail. That puts it at significantly less than 3000.00. Also, if you look at the geometry on geometrygeeks, you will find out that the stack and reach between your CAAD and th e 52 Emonda is pretty close, meaning you should be able to get in to your preferred position on either...
https://geometrygeeks.bike/compare/t...caad8-2013-51/
https://geometrygeeks.bike/compare/t...caad8-2013-51/
03-26-19, 08:09 AM
#32
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FWIW, unless a triathlon is really really hilly (like 100 feet per mile) then you're still better off on a TT or tri bike than road bike.
There's solid data to prove it and a GTN youtube video on the topic.
Your best bet is to keep what you got and buy a set of $35 clip-on aero bars. The added weight uphill of a few ounces will be more than won back in aero on the flats, downhill, and even up false flats.
There's solid data to prove it and a GTN youtube video on the topic.
Your best bet is to keep what you got and buy a set of $35 clip-on aero bars. The added weight uphill of a few ounces will be more than won back in aero on the flats, downhill, and even up false flats.
It is not 100 ft per mile but close: 4500 ft for 56 miles. I think aero is more noticeable with faster better speed. I am planning to rid on my drops as long as I can. I normally ride down to drops anyway.
I have tried clip-on numerous times but it never worked for me on road bike, with the clip ons I had to change my seat post and saddle too, but it is still awkward and not comfortable to me. All my friends who got clip-ons get rid of them.
03-26-19, 07:00 PM
#33
Senior Member
Recommend getting better/lighter wheels for existing bike, and training harder. 3 lbs is like 2-3 water bottles filled with water and a couple gel packs.
4500 ft climbing for 56 miles does not mean anything. Are there a few climbs totaling 4500 ft or it's a gradual climb. 4500 / 56 miles is 1.5% grade which is not steep at all.
4500 ft climbing for 56 miles does not mean anything. Are there a few climbs totaling 4500 ft or it's a gradual climb. 4500 / 56 miles is 1.5% grade which is not steep at all.
03-27-19, 10:32 AM
#34
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Recommend getting better/lighter wheels for existing bike, and training harder. 3 lbs is like 2-3 water bottles filled with water and a couple gel packs.
4500 ft climbing for 56 miles does not mean anything. Are there a few climbs totaling 4500 ft or it's a gradual climb. 4500 / 56 miles is 1.5% grade which is not steep at all.
4500 ft climbing for 56 miles does not mean anything. Are there a few climbs totaling 4500 ft or it's a gradual climb. 4500 / 56 miles is 1.5% grade which is not steep at all.
Cat 5 1.37 mi 2.2%
Cat 5 2.49 mi 2.1%
Cat 5 2.68 mi 1.5%
Cat 5 1.37 mi 2.1%
Cat 5 1.68 mi 1.9%
Cat 5 2.24 mi 2.4%
Cat 5 1.43 mi 3.6%
03-27-19, 11:59 AM
#35
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Is it possible that paying more for a nice bike will help you train harder?
One reads a lot about saving only a couple of seconds here and there. Perhaps there are reasons not to entirely ignore those few seconds.
They do add up, although one may eventually hit a point of diminishing returns.
So, save a couple of seconds with tire choice. A couple more with weight. A few more with clothing. A few more with handlebar choice and body position. And, all those do add up.
Now, the other issue is that a cyclist's ability to push out power may not be constant.
So, say you can push out 350W for 60 seconds, but it might be really hard to hold that for 65 seconds.
For a short hill, you may be able to crest the hill and back down on power in that 60 seconds, but either blow up, or deplete your energy reserves too far in that 65 seconds.
Really, just a few seconds?
But, yes... or looking at it another way, perhaps that will affect your choice to push up the hill at 350W vs 340W?
One reads a lot about saving only a couple of seconds here and there. Perhaps there are reasons not to entirely ignore those few seconds.
They do add up, although one may eventually hit a point of diminishing returns.
So, save a couple of seconds with tire choice. A couple more with weight. A few more with clothing. A few more with handlebar choice and body position. And, all those do add up.
Now, the other issue is that a cyclist's ability to push out power may not be constant.
So, say you can push out 350W for 60 seconds, but it might be really hard to hold that for 65 seconds.
For a short hill, you may be able to crest the hill and back down on power in that 60 seconds, but either blow up, or deplete your energy reserves too far in that 65 seconds.
Really, just a few seconds?
But, yes... or looking at it another way, perhaps that will affect your choice to push up the hill at 350W vs 340W?
03-28-19, 05:57 AM
#37
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I think my problem could be my bike. I got old Cannondale at about 18-19lb
I am planing to get at least new cassette 11-32 that hopefully will go well with 36/50 crank.
However, at my current miserable FTP 220W 3.45 W/kg - I am afraid it still will be hard.
I was naturally thinking about new bike and I like Emonda, that I did test ride yesterday
I liked the ride quality a lot, the bike feels stiff and it dampens the road really well.
The new bike is about 3lb lighter than mine, which is a lot.
The problem is not only the new bike price, about $3000 with aluminum wheels,
I am planing to get at least new cassette 11-32 that hopefully will go well with 36/50 crank.
However, at my current miserable FTP 220W 3.45 W/kg - I am afraid it still will be hard.
I was naturally thinking about new bike and I like Emonda, that I did test ride yesterday
I liked the ride quality a lot, the bike feels stiff and it dampens the road really well.
The new bike is about 3lb lighter than mine, which is a lot.
The problem is not only the new bike price, about $3000 with aluminum wheels,
It looks like Trek is promoting the Emonda 6SLR with Shimano for $2999, and the Emonda 6SL for $2799
Equipped with Ultegra, the Emonda 6SLR is listed at 6.60 kg / 14.55 lbs. The SL version is listed at 7.53 kg / 16.6 lbs.
Those are pretty impressive weights.
One note, those weights are without pedals or bottle cages. So, you're probably about 1 pound more ready to roll.
But, still a weight savings over our current bike.
I'm a bit surprised they can get that low without resorting to something like SRAM Red or Campagnolo Super Record, all with lots of Carbon Fiber.
Now, it looks like both bikes above come stock with the 50/34 crankset with a 11/28 rear cassette.
Are you wanting to start customizing the bike right out of the box? Larger cassette? Long cage derailleur? What else?
You may well end up making it even heavier.
Now, you don't necessarily need the new cutting edge products to save weight.
Here is a thread a while ago about getting a > 10 year old Cannondale to sub-15 lbs.
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...annondale.html
Aluminum wheels?
One thing is that a good low profile aluminum wheelset may be just about the same weight as an equivalent carbon fiber wheelset. The big weight savings come in when one starts going deep profile.
03-28-19, 06:37 AM
#38
Senior Member
If your old Cannondale is legitimately under 20lbs, you have no reason to get a new bike for this tri. You certainly have no reason to get a new road bike. If you want to go faster at the tri, get a disc cover for your rear wheel (Wheelbuilder makes them), get a budget deep front if you can (even a Jet 5 Express or similar), latex tubes, fast tires (GP4K, GP5K, Corsa Speed), aero road bars with the flats not wrapped (or clip-ons if you're comfortable using them), and an aero helmet. All of that costs way less than a new bike and will make far more difference than an Emonda.
