Duke of Kent

In 5 of my last 6 races, I've placed in the top 16. That includes being in the money at the Snake Alley Criterium, a 3rd place, an 8th place, and then a top 15 and top 6 placing at two Superweek races. I also have a personal recommendation from one of the officials at one of the superweek races regarding the upgrade. Should I go for it?

Oh, this is from 4 to 3.

Snicklefritz

I know some people who upgrade as soon as they have the points to avoid stuff expiring.
Then I've heard of others who delay upgrading to help teammates get their upgrades. There was
a team in my area that did that - the guys who got their points first delayed a bit to ride
for their teammates in other races. Then they all upgraded together. That way they stay
together in their new category and have an easier time with strategry and tactics. That is
another thing to consider depending on if you have teammates or not and what cat they are in.

IKYR

Are those your only results? If you want to upgrade go ahead and send them in but based on what I've seen I don't know if they'll accept a 3 upgrade without more points. Assuming those are your only results you only have 6 of the required 20 points for an upgrade.

Good luck,
wayne

San Rensho 

Big fish, small pond vs small fish, big pond. If moving up to 3 means you are going to race with 1 and 2s, then be ready for a humbling experience. Many years ago, when there were only 4 cats, I couldn't wait to get to cat 2, but when I did, I placed rarely and sure as heck never won any more races. But it does make you a better racer and racing with the big boys was a lot more fun.

geneman

Rode a 4-5 stage race this weekend and had a blast, came in second on a stage, and top ten on GC. My a$$ would have been fodder in the 3-4 race. I think when you get close to the top of the range of 4's, your always gonna bump into the guys that are rapidly on their way up the ladder and are making a pitstop in the 4-5 field. So, you definitely don't have to consistently win 4 races, but you have to be in the top 10 consistently. This is the essence of the USCF upgrade rules (10 top tens in 24 starts). Follow your ego. If you bruise easily stay back and gain confidence. There's usually plenty of talent in the 4 field to help you to raise your game. That is, as long as you can avoid the usual cat 5 carnage.

Mark

Cypress

Get the upgrade if you can.

I can't wait to get out of the 4's. (as soon as a certain rep pulls his head out of his ass)

Duke of Kent

The races I've done aren't small races... the Superweek and Snake Alley races, where I've done well, attract national level and international racers for the Pro/1/2 races. There were a couple of Milram and Toyota guys at the 1/2 race last weekend, for example. Big money, large (~75), fast fields in all of the categories. I wouldn't be putting in for an upgrade yet otherwise, but these races are a lot deeper than most, and I've done fairly well. In addition, a race official recommended that I upgrade, as mentioned before, and I'm going to use her as a reference.

In terms of racing with the Cat 3s...I'll be fine in terms of fitness. I ride with some 2s and 3s quite frequently and hold my own in the local practice crit, having won it twice so far this year. Making the right decisions and not being a dumbass with regards to breaks and such is another story; I have a bad tendency to launch solo flyers. That is definitely something that I need to work on.

Speaking of such, and not really associated with the thread in general: when do you usually find it appropriate to launch an attack? In the races around here, the 4s usually end up in a group sprint, or a slight gap opens up in the closing laps. Almost never any real breaks. The courses aren't selective enough to really break the pack open, aside from getting rid of the lower 1/2 of the field in a crit. Do you wait until right after a prime? When the pack slows? Personal opinions are invited.

San Rensho 

If it comes down to a group sprint, as usually happens in the lower cats, what has worked for me many times is to launch a solo attack on the last lap. Use the herd instinct of 5s and 4s to your advantage. On the last lap, if you get away they won't chase you down (don't try this in a 1/2 race, they WILL chase you down). They are too afraid to leave the group and will settle for sprinting for second place.

I plan to go a good 3-5 corners before the place where the final sprint will happen. This depends on the layout of the course. Pick a corner. Launch your attack right before the corner so that you are FIRST going into the corner you have picked. If you planned it right, you will have a few bike legnths on the pack, but not much more. If they react, they will all be entering the corner in a bottle neck and not be able to accelerate very fast.

Put your head down and GO! Don't look back, just go as hard as you can. Keep up your corner speed as high as possible for the remaining corners. Use the whole road, you should be the only one on it.

If you timed it right, you win. If you have a klingon or two that reacted and got your wheel, you get second or third. If you didn't time it right, you get caught by the pack and eat doo doo.

I'd rather give it a shot, do something proactive and have it fail, than sit in the pack and do the mass sprint crapshoot.

botto 

i'd wait until placing in the top 5-7 is a regular, almost expected, thing.

that said, i got out of the 4s as soon as i could.

cat4ever

If it were me, I would. I just happened to read a race report on another website where a cat 4 sandbagger won another race. Bragged about for the length of the report but also whines about how he is too fat for hilly races and too old to be any good. It's doubtful he will ever upgrade to 3. People like that get on my nerves.

Several teammates of mine who were winning/placing high in cat 4 races this spring are doing just fine in cat 3 races (top tens) now.

Funny, how my nic is "cat4ever" though

zzzwillzzz

you don't attack, you learn how to sprint

merlinextraligh

Why do you want to upgrade? I can think of a few reasons: 1) to race in a Category with other members of your team, 2) you're consistently beating the competition, to the point, your current category isn't providing you competition, 3) to gain access to events you want to do but can't because of your category, 4) your ego makes you need to be able to say I'm a Cat ____.

It's not no 2, so unless 1,3, or 4 apply, I'd stay put for awhile.

It sounds like your competitive in your Category, but by no means dominating it. I'd stay where your at. See if you can win a race or two. Enjoy being in the mix of things. When it starts getting too easy, then upgrade. If you upgrade too quick, finishing consistently out of the money in your new category is not going to be a lot of fun.

TheKillerPenguin

^ I'd add a 5 to those bulletpoints.

5) to force yourself to ride better. If you go from being a great cat4 to a middle of the pack cat3, you're probably going to be motivated to be a great cat3. You'll ride harder, ride faster, get stronger.

Jack Straw

I think upgrading would be a good motivational driver to keep training, riding faster, etc...enhancing what you love about the sport. I would upgrade for the challenge.

Cypress

Precisely the reason I want to get out of the 4's. (and 3's and 2's ect. )

merlinextraligh

But it helps to be the great Cat4 first. I'm not so sure upgrading from a slightly better than midle of the pack Cat 4 is the road to make you a great Cat3. If you're doing very well in Cat4 upgrade, sure. But if you're finishing at the back end of the money, I think there's still opportunity for growth in the category you're in.

Duke of Kent

Just wanted to update you guys on whats going on.

I've been racing more lately, and have been getting pretty frustrated with the negative racing in the 4s. Every time I get in a break or initiate one, probably half of the guys in it refuse to do any work. After a 10th, 13th, 15th and then a 3rd place (i worked with another guy in a break, two sat on), I'm going to send in my resume and see what happens. That makes a 3rd, 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th, 13th, 15th, and then another 10th and an 11th in two collegiate races. A couple of lesser finishes as well.

I don't sprint that well (unless its uphill) due to my smaller size and the fact that I get knocked around a bit, so the usual mass finishes don't treat me well. Positioning is most of the problem. However, I have a pretty high 20min LT that lends itself useful for going out on the attack. I plan on working on my sprint for next year, but at this point in the season, I go with what I know.

I know that I'm physically strong enough to compete in the 3s at this point (weekly practice races and some 3/4s races); and from what I've seen, they are far more willing to go on the attack and contribute to breaks.

Wish me luck.

Cypress

Good luck! Look at your USA cycling account to see if all of the races you have done ave been recorded. It's hard for the rep to upgrade you if half of the races don't have results yet.

zzzwillzzz

do you have the 15 points or 25 races needed for an upgrade from 4 to 3?

https://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580

points for cat 4:
7 for first
5 for second
4 for third
3 for fourth
2 for fifth
1 for sixth

looks like you have 9 points (4+4+1)- keep racing til you get your 15 points. don't use excuses about the other racers or your size or lack thereof. learn to race smarter and stronger.

i used to see lots of guys move up from 4s to 3s (in the pre cat 5 days) without results and say 'it will all be different when i'm a three and out of the squirrely fours'. they were all pack filler forever. if you can't do it in the fours you're not going to do it in the threes. hanging with 2/3s on training rides is a whole lot different than beating them in races.

Vinokurtov

Best racing I've done is in the Master's 1/2/3 and in our local "A" races. The Elite 3's have been pretty good at times, but the Master's is just one attack and break after the other. Fast. Brutal. Smile-inducing afterwards.

The 4/5's, other than one race I did with Pizzaman and a couple of others, have been a bunch of guys sitting around waiting for people to work then complaining when no one will. A lot of voices from the back complaining about a slow pace, and people getting all tweaked if you took the wheel they were sucking away when you were going to the front to stir the pot. Was way glad to be out of there.

Good luck on the upgrade.

sarah_k

You need 20 points to upgrade from a 4 to a 3.

https://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580

"4-3: 20 points in any 12-month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races with a minimum of 10 top ten finishes, or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50. 30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade"

But I've seen someone who barely had any results submit thier request and get upgraded.

Duke of Kent

I put 1/2 a lap into the field by myself, and then three guys bridged. We then lapped the field, and I got caught up in lapped rider traffic. I think I'm strong enough to race the 3s.

The only reason to stay in the 4s any longer is a shot at the ABR national championship two weekends from now. I'd still rather race the 3s there though.

BikeInMN

strong enough or not you don't have the points. some reps don't really care and will just give you the upgrade while others will just flat out deny it until you have earned it. in my area if you wanted it you'd probably get it but that doesn't make it right in my book. there are way too many cat3s or 2s for that matter who just asked enough and were given their upgrade.
in the last 4 races i did before upgrading to 3 i won 3 of them and took second in another that i gifted to a teammate in a break. it just ain't that tough to win in the 4s if you have any motor at all. same goes for the 3s which most guys with "motor" will blow through in a handful of races.

Vinokurtov

That might be true in Minnesota, but some places have a much deeper talent pool in the 3's and 4's, where riders are either transitioning through on their way up or perpetually sandbagging. At the Everest Challenge, the toughest 2 day USCF stage race, the 4/5 and 3 winners would have been knocking on the top 5 Pro 1/2's...

So yeah, it can be tough to win in those classes, depending on the race and location.

BikeInMN

Some places sure, but I've raced all over and other than the small handful of exceptions you get pretty much the same fitness levels everywhere depending on time of year. I've raced in a number of states where you'd think guys would be faster and they just aren't for some reason. My general statements will usually not be true for huge events either (you know the ones where guys will base their whole season around one weekend) but most guys are not grabbing their upgrade points at the huge national events. Those that do are usually on a fast track.