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How to ride on Multi-use paths (a rant)

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How to ride on Multi-use paths (a rant)

Old 01-27-20, 12:28 PM
  #26  
billyO13
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Originally Posted by Steve B.
The dog owner really needs to be aware of this unpredictability in their animal and make an effort to keep the dog out of the way of other users
I agree. And when I know there are people around, I keep him on a tight leash. I also let other, slower pedestrians know when I'm coming up behind them.

So getting back to my original point...

Originally Posted by SayWatt
It is the passers responsibility to announce him/ herself and it is the person being passed responsibility to be able to hear and react appropriately.
Originally Posted by genec
Folks, it comes down to this... you, approaching another human (with a dog or not)...
(let's not forget other bikers)
Originally Posted by genec
...have the responsibility to pass safely. You have the full picture before you. You have the ability to moderate your speed for the conditions AHEAD. Please do so.

Overtaking traffic, in every situation, has the responsibility to assess the situation AHEAD and respond accordingly.
Originally Posted by noimagination
IMHO, the overtaking cyclist has the primary responsibility here. It is up to him to pass safely...
the cyclist should have ...given warning(emphasis mine)...In the end, acting negligently (or, worse, punitively) is far worse than acting inconsiderately.
Thank you all who understand and were helping to clarify the point I was trying to make in my original post.

So, to emphasize that original point:

When passing someone (be they pedestrians with or without strollers, dogs on leash, in wheelchairs, or other bikers, etc...) let them know you are coming up behind them so that we CAN act responsibly.
It's YOUR responsibility because as far as I know, humans have yet to evolve to have eyes on the back of our heads.
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Old 01-27-20, 01:04 PM
  #27  
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"Dogs are unpredictable."

Motorists say the exact same thing about cyclists... "those cyclists swerve, they don't signal, they don't look back, they should stay to the right." All comments made by motorists regarding cyclists...

Substitute dog in above quotes, and it is exactly what you folks are saying.

Sorry... any overtaking traffic has the responsibility to ensure that it is safe to pass, before such an attempt is made. This is written into every traffic law and even maritime law.

If the walker and dog in front of you will not yield to your passing signals, I suggest you get off the bike, walk on the side away from the dog, and proceed past this obstacle.

Consider the case of a motorist coming up to a peloton on a roadway. The driver must wait for the way to clear, before proceeding.
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Old 01-27-20, 02:13 PM
  #28  
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FWIW...When overtaking anything on the MUP, I ring my bell or toot my horn well in advance and slow while waiting for acknowledgement, whether a wave, a glance, gathering a dog leash or moving to the side. The longer it takes for acknowledgement, the slower I'm going. And if there's no acknowledgement, then I pass with the widest margin possible I am already slowed way down.
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Old 01-27-20, 03:05 PM
  #29  
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I warn everybody I pass on the MUP, and often slow down to a crawl when there's not much room. Some people will act all righteously indignant no matter how much consideration you give them, but that's not an excuse to stop giving everybody that courtesy.
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Old 01-27-20, 05:49 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by genec
"Dogs are unpredictable."
Motorists say the exact same thing about cyclists... "those cyclists swerve, they don't signal, they don't look back, they should stay to the right." All comments made by motorists regarding cyclists....
And sometimes they are right. Not only unpredictable but also irresponsible. I was once driving on a 6-lane highway (3 lanes in each direction) and a young women on a road bike suddenly crossed all three lanes - went from the rightmost position on the right lane to the left lane - she probably suddenly noticed that she was about to miss her left turn (an intersection was approaching). She didn't look back, she didn't had a mirror, she didn't wear a helmet but she was wearing her headphones. She didn't signal a turn with her hand. She was extremely lucky that cars didn't hit her. But this is a whole other topic...
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Old 01-27-20, 06:22 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by BobbyG
FWIW...When overtaking anything on the MUP, I ring my bell or toot my horn well in advance and slow while waiting for acknowledgement, whether a wave, a glance, gathering a dog leash or moving to the side. The longer it takes for acknowledgement, the slower I'm going. And if there's no acknowledgement, then I pass with the widest margin possible I am already slowed way down.
I have bells on mos of my bicycles but I'm seriously considering getting a mini boat air-horn. The reason? because when I ring my bell on a rail-trail 99% of the time the person who hears it will stop and look... (are you ready for this?) UP. That's right they look up at the sky. Perhaps they think it's ET ringing his bell.

Cheers
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Old 01-27-20, 07:39 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Oso Polar
And sometimes they are right. Not only unpredictable but also irresponsible. I was once driving on a 6-lane highway (3 lanes in each direction) and a young women on a road bike suddenly crossed all three lanes - went from the rightmost position on the right lane to the left lane - she probably suddenly noticed that she was about to miss her left turn (an intersection was approaching). She didn't look back, she didn't had a mirror, she didn't wear a helmet but she was wearing her headphones. She didn't signal a turn with her hand. She was extremely lucky that cars didn't hit her. But this is a whole other topic...
Or is it... sure, she was wrong, but all that approaching traffic saw her (this time) and perhaps just slowed enough...

That doesn't mean you should act like a turkey, because you are in front... but indeed, overtaking traffic has a responsibility to not hit that which is front of them.

See Dick, see Dick do something stupid, don't be a Dick.
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Old 01-27-20, 11:03 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by billyO13
If there's nobody around, however, then you're wrong and those folks aren't being idiots, but rather normal folks letting the dogs have some freedom to sniff here and there.
If a cyclist passes you and scares you then there is somebody around and you aren't paying proper attention as far as letting your dogs roam side to side.

However, the general rules of a cycling trail/MUP is that no one should impede the flow of traffic. You are allowing your dogs to do just that, you are in the wrong.

BTW, one dog owner was running his dog without a leash. I allowed my wife to get ahead about 40 yards to take a few pics. Just then I noticed the guys dog was not on a leash. His dog chased my wife snapping at her ankles while she was screaming. Scared the snot out of me and of course, instant adrenaline rush. The dog finally backed off and headed my way as the owner rode by on his bike, I shouted at him not having his aggressive dog on a leash.

Just as we rode by one another, his dog turned on me and charged me. Unclip, came straight up along my front wheel head on toward my leg. WHACK! I kicked that dog square in the forehead. He went off crying but the owner started shouting on me, obscenities threatening to beat me down.

He got off his bike and charged toward my way. I got off my bike and said C'mon! He got about 10 yards away then changed his mind when he saw how upset I was. This gets me, people get upset when they think someone might hurt a dog, an animal. But yet they think it is ok that their animal risked serious injury to a human being, MY WIFE.

He was pissed but I showed him that I was even more pissed then he was. He changed his mind then decided to call 911 claiming a big yellow monster attacked his dog. I shouted loud enough, BE SURE YOU TELL THEM YOUR DOG THREATENED MY WIFE AND WAS NOT ON A LEASH!!".

Seriously, people think risking injury to a human innocently riding their bike but if to their dog, they deserve to be beat to a bloody pulp?

Man, I would have loved it if that wuss would have came closer. Threaten a dog? OK. Threaten my wife? I think the blood will spill on the opposite side!
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Old 01-28-20, 07:05 AM
  #34  
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Some of you could benefit from counseling.
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Old 01-28-20, 08:33 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by john m flores
Sorry that the rider buzzed you and your dog. Glad there wasn't a crash. When I ride on MUPs I usually signal my presence with a bell when I am on a bike with a bell. "On your left/right" never works because that's a term that only cyclists and precious few others understand, so if I don't have a bell, I usually announce myself with a "I'm behind you" far enough in advance that they can turn, assess the situation, and act accordingly. If they don't hear me because of headphones or something else, I reduce my speed and try to make a clean pass. I never use MUPs as my own personal time trial course because they are less predictable than the road.

I find that "Passing on your left" works fine 99.9% of the time. The problem with "on your left" is it's not clear what's supposed to happen to the left--the bike goes there or the pedestrian?

I don't use a bell in part because I've seen too many pedestrians who have no idea what to do when they hear one.

When I go fast on a MUP, it's always with the knowledge that I can expect to have to reduce speed at any point along the route. No matter which side of the path the leashed dog is on, I announce well back, slow, and go as far over away from the dog as I can. Even the best tethered dog can occasionally do something the owner cannot predict
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Old 01-28-20, 09:29 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by genec
"Dogs are unpredictable."

Motorists say the exact same thing about cyclists... "those cyclists swerve, they don't signal, they don't look back, they should stay to the right." All comments made by motorists regarding cyclists...

Substitute dog in above quotes, and it is exactly what you folks are saying.

Sorry... any overtaking traffic has the responsibility to ensure that it is safe to pass, before such an attempt is made. This is written into every traffic law and even maritime law.

If the walker and dog in front of you will not yield to your passing signals, I suggest you get off the bike, walk on the side away from the dog, and proceed past this obstacle.

Consider the case of a motorist coming up to a peloton on a roadway. The driver must wait for the way to clear, before proceeding.
Humans are far more predictable than a dog, so this analogy doesn't work. As a fellow human many of us have a lifetime experience at observing body language and can often times predict what a person is going to do on a MUP. It's those moments when the body language response isn't present that the internal alarm bells go off. We see when there's a response to our calling out "Passing" if a person moves to the right. A predictable response. It's when we get no reaction that an alarm bell goes off and we now take more precaution when we pass. Sometimes it's the usual that they are wearing ear buds and just don't hear the call out. But we observe a reaction or none and react accordingly.

With a dog a call out might mean the DOG hears you with the owner not, due to those ear buds, but you've no idea as to what the dogs reaction is going to be and it's sure not going to be a polite move over to the right side of the lane and when the dog does that you're not thinking "Gee, that's a smart dog", you are thinking "The dog is currently distracted by something in the bushes" and if' you've experience with dogs you know that distraction is going to change in a heart beat.

Do I think dogs should be walked on MUP - Nope. Or and maybe a better solution is don't allow bikes on a MUP unless it's just families at 8 mph. I think the popularity of MUP's, with fast triathletes, slow bikers, runners, bladders, 3 abreast baby carriages, strolling seniors, dogs being walked, etc.... is just a bit overwhelming for the typical conditions.
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Old 01-28-20, 09:43 AM
  #37  
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When coming up on people, I will say "passing on your right" or "passing on your left" to avoid them moving in the direction I intend to pass on. If they don't hear me, I will slow down and announce myself again when closer. Even when doing this, I will sometimes get distained looks like I'm infringing in some way.
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Old 01-28-20, 09:56 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by billyO13
... if you didn't warn them you were coming, and they were to decide to turn around just as you were passing, causing an accident, you'd be guilty of assault and I'm almost 100% sure the judge wouldn't let your argument that "I didn't let them know I was coming up behind them because I didn't want to scare them" stand as a good defense.
Yet when driving on the road, the rules/laws don't require you to alert when you are passing, and anyone crossing over the line of their lane are responsible for the accident caused by their negligence to see if someone was advancing in that lane first. I think these rules should also apply to cycling, that way we're all on the same page. Unfortunately my opinion doesn't hold water in a court of law, so I signal verbally, or by bell. And I anticipate that person jumping in any/every direction. Walkers with dogs have to be the cause of most MUP accidents, but just guessing.
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Old 01-28-20, 10:00 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Steve B.
Humans are far more predictable than a dog, so this analogy doesn't work. As a fellow human many of us have a lifetime experience at observing body language and can often times predict what a person is going to do on a MUP. It's those moments when the body language response isn't present that the internal alarm bells go off. We see when there's a response to our calling out "Passing" if a person moves to the right. A predictable response. It's when we get no reaction that an alarm bell goes off and we now take more precaution when we pass. Sometimes it's the usual that they are wearing ear buds and just don't hear the call out. But we observe a reaction or none and react accordingly.

With a dog a call out might mean the DOG hears you with the owner not, due to those ear buds, but you've no idea as to what the dogs reaction is going to be and it's sure not going to be a polite move over to the right side of the lane and when the dog does that you're not thinking "Gee, that's a smart dog", you are thinking "The dog is currently distracted by something in the bushes" and if' you've experience with dogs you know that distraction is going to change in a heart beat.

Do I think dogs should be walked on MUP - Nope. Or and maybe a better solution is don't allow bikes on a MUP unless it's just families at 8 mph. I think the popularity of MUP's, with fast triathletes, slow bikers, runners, bladders, 3 abreast baby carriages, strolling seniors, dogs being walked, etc.... is just a bit overwhelming for the typical conditions.
And right there you are exemplifying the typical mindset of the average motorist when they encounter a cyclist "using their road." "It's all too overwhelming for the conditions..." SIGH.

Slow down, and all those "conditions" become quite managable. It really IS that simple.

This whole mindset of "must move at maximum possible speed" is the heart of most traffic problems. "Speed Limit" does not mean "move at that speed."

The reality is that one should always moderate speed for the conditions present; be it for cattle on the highway, cyclists on the boulevard or children on the MUP.

Overtaking traffic ALWAYS has the responsibility to moderate speed for the prevailing conditions.
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Old 01-28-20, 10:53 AM
  #40  
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I've ridden on a large number of MUPS throughout much of the New England area. One thing I always find funny about these discussions is an implicit assumption that all MUPS are the same and should have the same rules about fast riding. The idea that I have to use the same speed to travel a densely crowded urban path as I would a rural path where I might not encounter another soul for 5-15 miles is ridiculous. And that's not even taking into account width, visibility and the qualities of the pavement/gravel.

Some of my favorite places to ride in the summer are too buggy to attract foot traffic--velocity is a great mosquito repellent as long as you keep your mouth closed.
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Old 01-28-20, 11:13 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by TheDudeIsHere
If a cyclist passes you and scares you then there is somebody around and you aren't paying proper attention as far as letting your dogs roam side to side.
However, the general rules of a cycling trail/MUP is that no one should impede the flow of traffic. You are allowing your dogs to do just that, you are in the wrong.
I don't know why you think I have multiple dogs, or that I was impeding traffic. There was plenty of room to pass on the left, and if I know that there are folks coming up behind me, then I make even more. And in interest of 100% honesty, I try to maximize the room that others have to pass because I'm more concerned about the health and safety of my 15 y/o dog than I am with others.

Also, Dude, while I understand your anecdote (and agree with you), that has nothing to do with my original post/complaint that and I'll say it one last time, WHEN PASSING SOMEONE ON A MULTI-USE PATH, LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU ARE COMING UP BEHIND THEM SO THAT EVERYONE HAS ALL THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO MAKE SAFE DECISIONS ON WHAT TO DO TO MAXIMIZE SAFETY FOR ALL PARTIES!

I will now ask Moderators to close this thread as it is getting off topic and I believe my point has been made as best as I can.
Thank you

as always
peace and love
billyO
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Old 01-28-20, 11:27 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by billyO13
I don't know why you think I have multiple dogs, or that I was impeding traffic. There was plenty of room to pass on the left, and if I know that there are folks coming up behind me, then I make even more. And in interest of 100% honesty, I try to maximize the room that others have to pass because I'm more concerned about the health and safety of my 15 y/o dog than I am with others.

Also, Dude, while I understand your anecdote (and agree with you), that has nothing to do with my original post/complaint that and I'll say it one last time, WHEN PASSING SOMEONE ON A MULTI-USE PATH, LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU ARE COMING UP BEHIND THEM SO THAT EVERYONE HAS ALL THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO MAKE SAFE DECISIONS ON WHAT TO DO TO MAXIMIZE SAFETY FOR ALL PARTIES!

I will now ask Moderators to close this thread as it is getting off topic and I believe my point has been made as best as I can.
Thank you

as always
peace and love
billyO
Honestly, I don't think the OP should have the right to limit the scope of the responses in a thread if there's any rational relationship to the original topic. If the topic of your OP was the proper way for cyclists to behave around dogs on MUPs, the proper way to control dogs on MUPs is a very natural outgrowth of that topic.
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Old 01-28-20, 11:46 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by billyO13
I don't know why you think I have multiple dogs, or that I was impeding traffic. There was plenty of room to pass on the left, and if I know that there are folks coming up behind me, then I make even more. And in interest of 100% honesty, I try to maximize the room that others have to pass because I'm more concerned about the health and safety of my 15 y/o dog than I am with others.

Also, Dude, while I understand your anecdote (and agree with you), that has nothing to do with my original post/complaint that and I'll say it one last time, WHEN PASSING SOMEONE ON A MULTI-USE PATH, LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU ARE COMING UP BEHIND THEM SO THAT EVERYONE HAS ALL THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO MAKE SAFE DECISIONS ON WHAT TO DO TO MAXIMIZE SAFETY FOR ALL PARTIES!

I will now ask Moderators to close this thread as it is getting off topic and I believe my point has been made as best as I can.
Thank you

as always
peace and love
billyO

OK, one dog, my bad as I see dog walkers with 2 or more at times so it was a relative type of comment. But okay, 1 dog.

Of course I think my comment is relative to your situation. You mentioned something about walking in the middle or the path letting your dog wander left to right. I think it applies.
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Old 01-28-20, 11:53 AM
  #44  
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Thread closed per OP's request.
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