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Rim brakes for Team Ineos

Old 09-01-20, 06:35 PM
  #26  
Dave Mayer
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
This is really ignorant.

What does 'work' mean? How well?
When set up properly, in dry conditions, rim brakes work well enough for you to lay rubber on the road. Or in wet conditions, to skid out - easily. So better braking isn't required. Discs themselves are heavy, and also require a heavy, less compliant fork. Add to that the glacial wheel changes, and almost complete dimensional incompatibility between manufacturers, it is no wonder that neither the racers or mechanics wanted them. But, pro racing exists to sell stuff to dentists with gold cards, and they want to be sold on the new kewl stuff.

I suppose if you mounted your UCI-level team bike with racks and 30 pounds of camping gear, and went touring in the rain with arthritic hands, you'd need discs....
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Old 09-02-20, 12:21 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
When set up properly, in dry conditions, rim brakes work well enough for you to lay rubber on the road. Or in wet conditions, to skid out - easily. So better braking isn't required.
Unless the wheels have an alloy brake track, I don't know of any rim brake/carbon rim that provides strong braking when soaking wet.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Discs themselves are heavy, and also require a heavy, less compliant fork.
Irrelevant. Plenty of disc brake bikes can make the UCI weight minimum, and any further weight savings would be illegal under the rules.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Add to that the glacial wheel changes,
.
a fair point

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
But, pro racing exists to sell stuff to dentists with gold cards, and they want to be sold on the new kewl stuff..
A fair fraction of the BF community, on reading this, would recognize the insult. Lots of people, neither dentists nor possessors of gold cards, have their own reasons for preferring disc brakes on their road bikes. If your particular brand of snobbery looks down on their choices, that just makes you a jerk.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I suppose if you mounted your UCI-level team bike with racks and 30 pounds of camping gear, and went touring in the rain with arthritic hands, you'd need discs....
Nobody is forcing you to buy a disc road bike, yet. But if I found myself on a group ride with you, I'd ease off, make a turn, and ride solo.
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Old 09-02-20, 01:21 AM
  #28  
ZHVelo
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Originally Posted by Doge
I don't know where the ignorant comment comes from. Pros use what they are given.
The braking is fine with either and no TDF pro needs the 28mm+ tires you can use with a disc. They are still winning on 23-25mm tires.
The need to swap parts among GC teams is obvious.
The car is not always there and having 7 teammates that can give you their wheels (quickly) vs 1-2 that are setup your size to give you a bike should also be obvious.

Then there is less rotating weight, less fork weight and less cable/fluid weight. So even at equal mass the climbers would sometimes prefer to add lead to the frame than mass on the wheel, fork and cockpit (brake fluid reservoirs).

I have some 7-10 disc braked wheels and some 15-20 rim braked ones. Some of the disc brakes are not as good as some of the carbon rim brakes and visa versa.
You didn't answer any of my questions.

Rotating weight is a complete myth.
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Old 09-02-20, 01:23 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
When set up properly, in dry conditions, rim brakes work well enough for you to lay rubber on the road. Or in wet conditions, to skid out - easily. So better braking isn't required. Discs themselves are heavy, and also require a heavy, less compliant fork. Add to that the glacial wheel changes, and almost complete dimensional incompatibility between manufacturers, it is no wonder that neither the racers or mechanics wanted them. But, pro racing exists to sell stuff to dentists with gold cards, and they want to be sold on the new kewl stuff.

I suppose if you mounted your UCI-level team bike with racks and 30 pounds of camping gear, and went touring in the rain with arthritic hands, you'd need discs....
"Well enough" is a judgemental statement. In the wet and long descends I would rather have disc brakes. Your only point is the effort of wheel changes. That's it. But that has little to do with "worked for 100 years".
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Old 09-02-20, 08:17 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
You didn't answer any of my questions.

Rotating weight is a complete myth.
Your questions were not directed to me and rhetorical - I thought. But in case not.
General statement is rim brakes and disc brakes do function differently, as do brand and pad and rims etc. The rider will brake accordingly.

What does 'work' mean?
Equal ability to win the race using them.

How well?
Enough to win the race.

How well compared to alternatives?
As likely to win the races they are used in. More likely to get a GC win because of portability options between bikes and teammates.

Have they worked on carbon rims for 100 years?
No, carbon rims have been out for about a generation.

Were they working in the same environment (i.e. did they do the same courses, the same speeds) as now?

In many cases yes. This is too hard to tell. Speeds have been pretty close, but do vary due to rider, equipment and road surface.

On the wheel mass, no point is debating that one.
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Old 09-02-20, 08:37 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Then there is less rotating weight, less fork weight and less cable/fluid weight. So even at equal mass the climbers would sometimes prefer to add lead to the frame than mass on the wheel, fork and cockpit (brake fluid reservoirs).
.
I didn't notice this thing about "rotating weight" until ZHVelo pointed it out.

If you think that the disc rotor adds significantly to the "rotating weight" of a bicycle wheel, you would benefit from learning some rudimentary physics, with an emphasis on the concept of moment of inertia. Simply put, because the disc is close to the axis of rotation, it contributes negligibly to the angular momentum of the wheel.
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Old 09-02-20, 08:43 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Then there is less rotating weight ...
A 100g disc rotor has approximately the same moment of inertia as a 3g weight located at the rim, which is pretty insignificant. (3g is roughly twice the weight of the little stem nut that comes on an inner tube.)
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Old 09-02-20, 10:54 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Your questions were not directed to me and rhetorical - I thought. But in case not.
General statement is rim brakes and disc brakes do function differently, as do brand and pad and rims etc. The rider will brake accordingly.

What does 'work' mean?
Equal ability to win the race using them.

How well?
Enough to win the race.

How well compared to alternatives?
As likely to win the races they are used in. More likely to get a GC win because of portability options between bikes and teammates.

Have they worked on carbon rims for 100 years?
No, carbon rims have been out for about a generation.

Were they working in the same environment (i.e. did they do the same courses, the same speeds) as now?

In many cases yes. This is too hard to tell. Speeds have been pretty close, but do vary due to rider, equipment and road surface.

On the wheel mass, no point is debating that one.
No, but you decided to reply to my post, with a specific focus. Either reply as a whole, which you now did, or don't at all, but don't take one part and go on a tangent.
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Old 09-02-20, 12:12 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
No, but you decided to reply to my post, with a specific focus. Either reply as a whole, which you now did, or don't at all, but don't take one part and go on a tangent.
I think that taking one part of a post and going on a tangent is entirely fair game here.
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Old 09-02-20, 05:08 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
A 100g disc rotor has approximately the same moment of inertia as a 3g weight located at the rim, which is pretty insignificant. (3g is roughly twice the weight of the little stem nut that comes on an inner tube.)
Dura-ace 140mm disc center of mass is about 55mm out from fulcrum. Rim ~350mm out. 55/350 X 100g (disc) = ~16g
Then the hub is different adding mass, and mostly steel bolts are supplied. So the mass increase is closer to 200g although mostly at the hub.
Some like building more crosses for the disc torque (adding rotating mass and aero resistance), or more tighter spokes, maybe stressing the rim, or causing a compression fracture.
There are fewer of these issues with light rim braked wheels (like have been used in TdF hill climbs).

Compare this UCI legal 1370g ready to ride (tires, glue, skewers, cassette) wheelset (bare f/r 780g), to a UCI legal disc setup with discs and bolts and spokes.
I'd be surprised adding it all up if it was not 5%-10% heavier. That matters to climbers, and add to that interchangeability ease and you can understand why similar setups are being used on the hill climbs by GC teams.

Last edited by Doge; 09-02-20 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 09-02-20, 05:35 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
....
If you think that the disc rotor adds significantly to the "rotating weight" of a bicycle wheel, you would benefit from learning some rudimentary physics, with an emphasis on the concept of moment of inertia. Simply put, because the disc is close to the axis of rotation, it contributes negligibly to the angular momentum of the wheel.
Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!
It is the whole system. The disc, the hub, the steel bolts, the different lacing many builders want. I posted my light climbers above.

Here is a tubular disc. It is MUCH heavier (single wheel 1,710) than the set above due to some things besides being disc braked. And all that spoke tension to deal with those hub braking forces are crushing that fragile rim.




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Old 09-02-20, 05:43 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Dura-ace 140mm disc center of mass is about 55mm out from fulcrum. Rim ~350mm out. 55/350 X 100g (disc) = ~16g
The moment of inertia depends on the radius squared. For a solid disc, I = 1/4 * m *r^2. For a weight at the rim, I = 1/2 * m * r^2. If you approximate the disc rotor as a solid disc, the equivalent mass at the rim is 2g for the system you described.
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Old 09-02-20, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
The moment of inertia depends on the radius squared. For a solid disc, I = 1/4 * m *r^2. For a weight at the rim, I = 1/2 * m * r^2. If you approximate the disc rotor as a solid disc, the equivalent mass at the rim is 2g for the system you described.
+1.

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." N. dG T

Or to put it another way, these relationships are verifiable empirically. They are not a matter of opinion.
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Old 09-07-20, 07:50 AM
  #39  
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One thing is apparent to me after reading this thread and all the other disc threads that pop up on this forum. Some folks have some emotional capital invested in one brake or the other.
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Old 09-08-20, 09:47 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
... But if I found myself on a group ride with you, I'd ease off, make a turn, and ride solo.
Ha, what? Seriously?
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Old 01-26-22, 02:34 PM
  #41  
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Trek and Pinarello have wisened up. Trek now offers its Madone in rim version. Pinarello now offers its Dogma F in rim version.
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