Iride01 

Before I ever started thinking about it, I thought it was pretty much the wheel rim that needed to be made airtight for going tubeless and some goo installed for sealing any possible leaks around the bead seat and help with punctures while being ridden.

Now that I'm looking for some new tires, I'm seeing many of them advertised as tubeless by both retailers and the tire manufacturers. So what is going on here. Is this just marketing or is there some real design difference? Do some regular tires just let too much air permeate through their rubber compounds?

Mainly though, I'm wanting to know if I can put a tube in these tires called tubeless?



Clinchers, not tubular..........if anyone needs that clarity.

Andrew R Stewart 

So far every tubeless tire I have dealt with can (and often does) have a tube in it. This the usual fix for on the ride flats that don't seal.

BTW tubeless tire design isn't only about the casing's air tightness. Much greater control of the tire bead's size, shape and placement is done then with standard tube type tires. Andy

Metaluna

Regarding the tubeless bead: One problem I've had with tubeless tires is that sometimes the bead can get stuck in the rim so tight that it's nearly impossible to break it. This is a big problem if you're running tubes because if you get a flat on the road you may find it impossible to get the tube out. It might be impossible anyway if you can't get the bead over the rim, but if the bead is stuck you won't even make it to the second hurdle, and at least in the second case you have tire levers to help you. This can happen when running tubeless too, but at least in that case you have sealant so there's a chance the tire can seal itself and get you home.

I'm not suggesting that this proves tubeless is better or anything like that (I've had mixed luck with tubeless myself, and that's being generous), just that it's something to be aware of if you're using a tubeless-ready tire on a tubeless-ready rim, but running them with a tube. It's a bit of a worst-of-both-worlds situation. I would break the bead periodically even if the tire isn't giving you any trouble, just to keep it loose. I have other tire/rim combos that unseat themselves anyway as the pressure goes to zero (which is great if you have tubes, but sucks if running tubeless).

TL;DR, it's still better to use regular non-tubeless (tubeful? ) tires if you're sure you'll always use tubes.

DOS

Yes you can run tubes in tubeless tires but most makers of tubeless tires have corresponding models that are designed to be run with tubes, so not much is gained by getting a tubeless tire for a non tubeless rim. .For example, if you like Schwalbe tires but don't have tubeless ready rims, get Schwalbe One clinchers rather than Pro One tubeless. They are very similar tires except for some differences in the bead and construction. Both tires use Schwalbe’s One Star compound but Pro One uses something called microskin to make the tire airtight (when using sealant) while the clincher version has V guard puncture protection. Both are good tires and the clincher version is a little cheaper. Same with Conti 5000 vs. 5000 tubeless.

ThermionicScott 

I use tubes in my tubeless-compatible Compass Naches Pass tires. No issues to report yet.

alcjphil

Are you starting with wheels that are tubeless compatible? If they are not, stop looking at road tubeless tires. The difference between road tubeless and regular road clincher tires goes beyond the tires. You need wheels with rims designed for road tubeless tires. Me? I started off with wheels specifically designed for road tubeless tires. The rims don't require tubeless tape, and I don't have to worry about leaks. The tires that I have used don't even need sealant to hold air, so I often have not used it. I would never buy any wheel for road tubeless use that required me to install rim tape

CliffordK

My tubeless experiment was cut short last fall with hitting a rock funny, and tearing a hole large enough that the tire would not reseal.

What I found:

Tire: Tubeless: Schwalbe One Pro
Rim: Ultegra 6700 or 6800, without spoke holes.

It was easy enough to install the tubeless tire (Schwalbe One Pro) on the rim without a tube.
It was easy enough to install a tube tire (Gator Hardshell) on the rim with a tube.
It was VERY DIFFICULT to install the tubeless tire on the tubeless rim with a tube.

Anyway, if you have a more conventional rim, then don't worry about tube/tubeless tires.

If you have a tubeless rim, then don't plan on running tubeless tires with a tube except in an emergency... maybe.

DrIsotope

Can you use tubeless tires with tubes? Sure. Should you use tubeless tires with tubes? Not really.

alcjphil

Why would you need access to spoke heads to true a wheel? You would have to remove rim tape. Sounds messy and as if the wheel maker isn't really ready for road tubeless. I would not buy those wheels

Metaluna

Since I've starting playing with tubeless ready rims, I have to say, taping them properly has become one of the most hated chores I've ever had to do on a bike. Getting two layers of tape on just right -- reasonably well centered, tight, and evenly overlapped, without bubbles or creases -- is a thumb-busting PITA. Then you get it perfect and go to cut the valve hole by cutting a cross in it, and it splits a little too far up onto the rim bed and you have to pull it up and start all over again, or else it will start leaking around the valve. Or you mount the tire and in the process discover that you pulled up an edge of the tape with your tire lever, so time to start all over again, etc. UST-style sealed rims definitely have their benefits.

alcjphil

This reinforces my premise that wheels that require tape to install road tubeless tires are a waste of time. I have been using Campagnolo Shamal 2way fit wheels for as long as they have been available. No rim tape, tires mount easily and seal up often only using my regular pump. No muss, very little fuss. These wheels are specifically designed for road tubeless tires. I cannot imagine riding road tubeless tires with wheels that would require that they be taped for tubeless use. Any "tubeless ready" wheel that requires tape isn't tubeless ready

jadocs

I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that the OP appears to be asking about running tubeless tires on regular clincher rims.

DOS

Meh, this is overstated. I have HED Belgium+ Rims, which I had built up for reasons other being tubeless ready, and they are excellent rims that make an excellent wheel. I have run them with tubes, and for the past two years tubeless. Taping them isn’t any harder than taping any other standard rim, so in other words not hard, and they seal up fine.Their main debit is that it does take a good blast from my air canister to get them to seal up but otherwise not much by way of fuss.

DOS

I noticed

alcjphil

Good point. I think that the OP was asking an honest question about tubeless road tires and how they differ from regular clincher road tires

alcjphil

It has been working well for you, but many people have had trouble properly taping tubeless ready rims and have become frustrated with road tubeless. My take is that the future of road tubeless wheels and tires lies with setups that do not require taping. The very first tubeless road rims produced by Shimano did not require tape. I think that they were onto something

DOS

I think I agree that the tapeless variant is a better design fore tubeless and may have been what I looked for if my original choice of wheels had been based primarily on going tubeless. But to say that they aren’t tubeless ready because of a relatively minor inconvenience of tape is silly. I think tape gets blamed for other problems in the tubeless arena, the main one being the lack of standards means one can encounter tire-rim mismatches where certain tire brands just don’t mate well with certain rims.

Iride01 

Yes I'm asking about the differences in a tire that says it is a Tubeless tire as opposed to a tire that doesn't state that.

While I was aware of the term Tubeless Ready or TLR, I thought that pretty much was just saying that the tire had some material on the bead seat that let it seal up to the rim as opposed to other tires that had a pretty hard bead seat that didn't shape itself to the rim as well.

However, now I'm seeing tires online advertised as Tubeless, not TLR. And I'm not seeing a corresponding model of the tires in a version that indicates it's for tubes. Maybe the retailers just aren't carrying them.

Some of the googling I did came up with some not too informative articles that suggested Tubeless Tires were thicker in the tread. But little on any differences that might make tubing them a bad thing.

I'm not ready to go tubeless, I'm running on Mavic Open Sport and Mavic Open Pro rims. About 14 mm inside width IIRC, and 25 mm tires.

edit... I didn't recall correctly. The rims say 15 mm for the internal width.

jadocs

This might help:

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/clin...ubeless-tyres/

WizardOfBoz

It does seem like tubeless boils down to:

1) Ability to run at lower pressure without worrying about pinch flats
2) Self-sealing handles many punctures without having to pull the tube and replace or patch
3) A bit better road feel
4) (My trek store manager tells me) ability to ride the tire longer, with more wear, before replacing.

On the down side
5) It can be harder than heck to get a tubeless tire off the rim
6) Tubeless goop can be messy. I mount the tires without goop, seal them, and then inject the goop with a syringe. Much less messy. For field removal, take care or your gonna be slimed.
7) Repairing a tubeless tire with a gash that goop won't seal can be difficult and may not be feasible in the field (you need to clean goop off the area inside the tire, and dry the surface).
8) It can be harder than heck to get a tubeless tire back onto the rim. Harder, apparently, with a tube.
9) Once on the rim, it can be hard to get the tire to seat if you don't have a tube installed.

So, you get a bit better ride and fewer flats but if you get a flat out in a remote area but for some tire/rim combos may the good Lord help you because there's no way you're fixing the thing. At best you MUST have and use a tube to repair in the field, and (for me at least) my tire/rim combo is almost impossible to field mount. So I'd be screwed if I got a flat out in the surrounding rural areas.

Summarizing: Tubeless
Has slightly higher performance
Resists routine small punctures and pinch flats
Is difficult if not impossible to field repair if you get a a gash or larger puncture (at least for my rim/tire combo).

Iride01 

Y'all are still focusing too much on pro's and con's. I want to know if there are physical attributes in the construction of a tire marketed as "Tubeless" that make them unsuitable for using with a tube on a daily basis.

Also, is there a difference in a tire that is marketed as Tubeless Ready (TLR) as opposed to those marketed as a Tubeless Tire.

Metaluna

I thought that got answered several times?

Anyway, I believe the answer to your first question is NO, from the point of view of someone using tubes, there is no FUNCTIONAL difference between tubeless, tubeless-ready, and conventional clincher tires. Unsuitable is a strong term. They are all suitable for use with tubes on any hooked rim of the correct diameter, and will work pretty much exactly the same as conventional clinchers.

There are however, qualitative downsides to using a tubeless or tubeless ready tire when you don't need to:
1) Tighter-than-necessary beads that might give you trouble during road repairs
2) Possibly heavier construction that *might* affect the ride characteristics (i.e. slightly slower, harsher ride).

#2 is really all over the map though. Unless there exists a tubeless and non-tubeless version of the same tire (e,g, Conti GP5000), you really can't make any predictions based on the tubeless rating. Even if there IS a tubeless and clincher version of the same tire, sometimes they have different features, e.g. Schwalbe sometimes puts extra flat protection on the clincher version, as someone else already mentioned. You really have to look at the reviews on a case-by-case basis.


Edit: I forgot to answer your second question. In some cases, "tubeless" means a tire that can hold air on its own without sealant (e.g. it has a butyl liner or something like that). Tubeless-ready (or TLR, or TL-Easy, or 2Bliss, etc.) tires *might* rely on sealant impregnating the casing to make them fully airtight (like the Hutchinson Sectors I had for a while). So a true tubeless tire might be heavier than a tubeless ready tire. Or not. These days the terminology is all over the map and I wouldn't worry about it when using tubes.

DOS

It did

alcjphil

Here is where it is unsuitable to use an inner tube when riding road tubeless tires with road tubeless compatible wheels. You reduce the overall reliability for flat protection, you add the weight of a superfluous inner tube along with the additional cost of something that you don't need. True road tubeless tires can be used without sealant if you choose and they are still less likely to flat than road clinchers with inner tubes(almost no possibility for pinch flats) Tubeless ready tires absolutely require sealant, but using them as directed will still make flats less likely than regular clinchers. You can use road tubeless or tubeless ready tires with inner tubes if you choose to do so, but you will increase the likelihood of flat tires, therefore inner tubes for road tubeless tires are not recommended

Iride01 

Well thanks for the info people's. I see where those terms are really helpful for those that are running tubeless. It just adds a little more work for me to find a tire. Not a lot of work, but more to consider than the last time I chose a new tire.