Biker395 

OK, I need some help and opinions here.

Back in October, the Forest Service forbade the Furnace Creek 508 from using the usual route from San Francisquito Canyon through the Angeles National Forest without getting a special use permit, and paying a rather substantial fee. They also demanded a fee for the "unapproved" use they made of the road the preceding year. That prompted the ride director to re-route the course on an adjacent road.

A few weeks later, the Forest Service contacted the LA Wheelmen and put the kabash on a planned "5 Counties Tour" that was also to take place on roads that passed through the National Forest. They did this on the day before the event(!) The ride organizers found helpful private land owners willing to allow them to use their land for rest stops, but the Forest Service told them that they would not be allowed to stop and render aid without a permit (), and on that basis, the ride was cancelled.

The Forest Service had also put the kabash on a planned ride to Whitney Portal and another on Highway 120, also on the basis that they were on National Forest Service land.



Both the 508 and the 5 Counties Tour had been held for a minimum of 20 years, so the organizers were surprised and miffed at being Shanghaied.

And yes, I was ticked off too.

I checked the regulations, and they cite that any non-commercial use with over 75 participants requires a special use permit, as does ANY commercial use, regardless of the number. And for commercial uses, they demand a fee of 3-5 percent of the gross receipts. And "non-commercial use" includes non-profit use ... if there is a fee collected, it's commercial.

I checked further, and the public comments and responses to those regulations (under Administrative law, proposed laws must be made available for public comment before enactment, with the public comments addressed).

A response to many of those public comments make it clear (to me, anyway), that the special use permit regulations apply only to National Forest Service Roads, which are a small minority of the roads within the National Forest. One of the public comments complained that although the rules only applied to National Forest Service roads, it was difficult to tell which was which. The Forest Service replied that it wasn't difficult, as they are specially signed and identified in an atlas that each national forest must publish.

So, I looked up what I believe to be the atlas, and guess what ... it is clear (at least to me), that all of the roads we are talking about riding on are NOT national forest service roads, but rather, public roads that are under local or state jurisdiction. Hence, a FS special use permit is not required. The FS doesn't have the jurisdiction to even ask for one.

A LOT of organized rides around here pass through National Forest Service land, so this is important to a lot of us, I suspect.

Has anyone else had a similar experience with the National Forest vis-a-vis organized rides? Did they tell you on what basis they were entitled to demand a permit for roads under the jurisdiction of the state or county?

Dudelsack 

I remember when I was in the military that the most carefully written and well-meaning regulations could be trashed by some dim-wit GS 5 with an attitude and a heavy hand. As difficult as it is to get anyone to take responsibility in our large Federal bureaucracy, I wonder if this interpretation could be pinned down to one office or individual and be countermanded.

It doesn't seem fair or reasonable, if that helps.

The trump card to me is that in an era where obesity is epidemic and aging disorders are costing us dearly, surely someone in the System would understand that this silly regulation is counterproductive. I'd call Michele. Let me see if her number is still on my speed dial...........

Rick@OCRR

I think I offered this opinion before but just in case it was missed:

Just carry your Adventure Pass and they can't touch you. Well, they can, but hey, if you have a valid up to date Adventure Pass even the Forest Service can't deny you a little adventure!

I paid my $30.00. Isn't that enough ?

Rick / OCRR

DiabloScott

It's "kibosh".

curbtender

Pencil pusher won't be out there, so go ride. Have you guys had problems that used them in the past?

Biker395 

FWIW ... that is exactly what I think is happening. No problems for 25+ years. No problems since the rules were changed in 2004 ... why now? I ascribe to Napoleon's view of such things:

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

At this point, I'm pretty sure there is some gnome up there at the Forest Service that is bent on putting their "stamp" on their tenure, and has opted to do their own interpretation of the rules regarding special use permits. And they likely didn't ask for an opinion of counsel or read the Federal Register publications that contradict their interpretation.

Apparently not! I have an Adventure Pass too. And you know Forest Service policy on the Adventure Pass? None is required if you are simply passing through or parking on private land (for example, riding Angeles Crest Highway and parking at Newcomb's). I now know why ... they don't have the jurisdiction to ask for one.

Just for clarity ... no one is demanding a special use permit for a loose group of people who just show up and ride. They're saying one is required, even if no fee is charged, if it's an "event" has over 75 participants, or if any fee whatsoever is charged for the event ... whether it's only to cover expenses or not.

b-gosh.

fietsbob

The guy was told to stay home last week till the Debt-budget extension pAssed .,

Terex

You guys got bluffed and folded. You must have competent council in the LA area who would stick it up the Forest Service's drainage sideways just for fun. Can't believe the ride was canceled.

BTW, I think we're still in October. But I'm on the east coast right now, so what do I know...

Rowan

This is a money-raising exercise. The largess that allowed the ride through in previous years have evaporated. Permits cost money, and you know where that permit money goes.

Then there will come the cost recovery for the time allocated to the park staff to attend to junctions and make sure the event runs as they deem it should. The police here used to close roads and junctions for events of all sorts until about 10 or 12 years ago, with the department picking up the tab for the overtime. Now the events have to pay through the nose for that overtime... which likely would have been paid anyway because the police were rostered on duty.

Not all parks allow access if you are just passing through. We found this out after getting to certain gates for Zion Canyon National Park. We were going to have to pay $25 to traverse a relatively short stretch of road to connect to the highway we wanted. Instead, we turned around and trudged back to do a loop around the edge of the park. I wasn't going to pay on principle for the most expensive toll road I have ever come across. It certainly didn't cost us $25 in fuel...

icyclist 

I organize photo tours in California and beyond, and I face the same issue. In the past few years, national parks have instituted special use fees. E.g. Yosemite requires a $50 application to apply for a permit to bring a group of photographers to the park, and the permit itself is $350. In Yellowstone, if you offer instruction to people, the fee includes a little bit of the gross take. This past weekend, in the ghost town of Bodie, a state park, I had to give the park $150 to accompany a group of photographers, in addition to the normal per person entry fees.

In this case, though, if it's live by the regulations then it's die by the regulations, and the two rides that were cancelled shouldn't have been. IF the roads truly weren't under federal jurisdiction. But this is slippery ground. During the government shutdown, one could drive through Yosemite, on state highway 120, but no one could stop, and certainly no commercial activities were allowed.


If I were an L.A. Wheelman - and I am - I would urge the club officers to challenge the Forest Service, and I'd want them to contact their local congresspeople (who obviously haven't had much to do lately) for help, too. Some years ago, the wonderful Titus Canyon road, through Death Valley, was mostly closed to due "washouts." After people complained to the local congressman, the NPS found the money to keep the road open. By the same token, a little political pressure - i.e. an implied loss of funding - for overbearing tactics in the national forests of Southern California, might allow organized bike rides to again take place.

big john

I have done the 5 Counties ride since the 80s (when they charged $5) and I can think of no reason for the USFS to be after any fees. It's not a huge ride and many years it's fewer than 75 riders.
I think Rowan nailed it, it's about another source of money and buying permits wouldn't help the riders, the organizing club, or anyone else.
FWIW I wanted to do the ride unsupported but I think everyone was so pissed off they all just went elsewhere.

CB HI

With the shutdown stories of National Forest Service "armed" rangers actions towards the public - shutting private businesses down and fencing open air monuments to our armed forces heros, no one should be surprised with the new TSA attitude by them.

Now that they believe themselves to be all powerful, it will be hard to step that back.

Biker395 

Guilty as charged. Uyen's B-day ride was a hoot anyway.

My civil disobedient side favors rescheduling the ride. I'll carry a copy of the CFR and the altas with me, should they decide to force the issue.

BTW, I really don't think this has anything directly to do with the shutdown. The other ride organizers were harassed about this stuff long before the shutdown. And I'm not sure it's so much about money either ... The LA Wheelmen were asking only $20/rider, and 5% of that is only $1 a piece (maybe $100 total). I have a stronger suspicion that it is someone who's hostile to bicycling on forest roads.

Biker395 

This is hearsay (I was not in direct contact with them), but supposedly, the FS offered no services whatsoever for the fee paid for the privilege of riding through the forest. Arrangements were already made with CalTrans and the CHP for support and the like.

It's important to note too ... National Parks and National Forests are entirely different things. The National Park Service is under the Department of the Interior, while the National Forest Service is under the Department of Agriculture. National Parks can and do have very restrictive rules about bicycling within park boundaries.

Dudelsack 

Rowan

Yes, thanks for clarifying. Ironically, the Forest Departments in various States here are quite lenient. They allow free camping, 4WDing, MTBing and all sorts of other activities unfettered by fees and permits.

2 wheeler

I had to deal with the Forest Service when I lived in Montana, in the middle of a zillion acres of National Forest. Among the locals the Forest Service was known as the Forest Circus. Having witnessed their antics, I can assure you that the title fits.

billydonn

FYI. National Park Service is not the same agency as the US Forest Service. The latter is a division of the Dept of Agriculture, the former is within the Dept of the Interior.

Edit: sorry, I see 395 has this covered...

I'm of the opinion that you guys did get bluffed by a mid to low level bureaucrat.

dalameda

Put in a call to your local congressperson's office or better yet, Senator's local office. Notify them that you were wrongly denied access because you were traveling on a public road and have them contact the sec of ag to inquire. That will get the policy cleared up in a hurry.

scott967

I'm guessing the point of pressure is with the Regional Forester in Vallejo.

scott s.
.

david58

Not to hijack, but I think the FS is messing with us - they have the power, even though it is our land. The FS ranger or administrator doesn't have any more ownership than I do - it is OURS.

I am hunting this year for the time in some years - elk in Western Oregon with my muzzleloader. An either sex tag. Yet we come to find out that on FS lands, it is bull only. This is a new regulation put out by the FS, on the hunters in this state who pay the wildlife managers to manage the elk herds in the State, INCLUDING the FS lands.

So, I think almost any user of FS lands is being screwed with at some level, and it is likely to get worse unless we stand up on our hind legs and say "No!" For the organized rides, I think that an attorney might be a help, but you also may have hit that perfect storm where we were in the midst of a shutdown and FS and Park Service employees were told to inconvenience us little people. In which case you aren't dealing with a GS5, but rather an Administrator with no contact with people of our ilk and who is more interested in politics of the job rather than what the job is supposed to be.

BTW, I have always found FS employees to be affable, willing to help, and actually make me envious of their jobs. But I am talking about those folks with muddy boots and driving pickup trucks, the ones that are out in the woods with regular people every day.

big john

Me, too, for the most part but there was a FS employee driving a green truck who used to buzz cyclists on Angeles Crest Hwy. He would blow the horn and get as close as he could while shouting obscenities with rage. Quite the dufus. A bunch of us complained and it stopped, as far as I know.

rydabent

I am not a lawyer, but if the ride takes place on a state hiway, the stiff necked gorilla from the FS has no say, even if it does run thru a park.

Also +1 on the suggestion you contact both your Congressman and Senator. Have them lean on the FS and remind them that Congress appropriates their salary, and suggest they be more serving to the public. You will be amazed how accomodating the FS in that area becomes. I also agree that this situation is generated by some low level B'crat with just a little power that wants to mess with you to show how important he thinks he is. Unfortunately the world is full of his type.

rydabent

Further as someone suggested, are not the parks there for the enjoyment of all. Especially cyclist that will cause NO damage to the roads at all.

One last thot----------if you would have not asked, they couldnt have told you no.

dbg

Bummer. In the early 90's I used to do a very fun annual run through the Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore (Zoy Run). Up and down the dunes and along the trails --small-ish group, very cool. One year the park just decided to prohibit the whole thing. The last year 50+ showed up anyway and ran on our own, but apparently the rangers very nicely asked that we not ever do that again. I'm pretty sure they were observing it grow a little bit every year and wanted to shut it down before it got too big.