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Disks not ready

Old 02-11-21, 02:31 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
This is such cracked logic. This fight was over when pros on discs were a small minority.
The premise is that without the weight limit, pros would not use discs. Pre weight limit equipment choices show pros will do a lot to shave an ounce. So do you quibble with that premise?.

Second premise is that big part of the high end bike market wants to ďbe like MikeĒ or in this case Lance, or
thomas, etc.

if Pro cyclists were shunning discs, and telling the
ptess they are doing so because they are too heavy, do you think people would buy disc brakes bikes at the high end in the same quantity?

So, rather than being cracked, the argument is
both valid and sound, ie the
premises are true, and the conclusion flows
from the premises.

if you disagree, tell me which of the premises is wrong, or why the conclusion doesnít follow form the premises.
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Old 02-11-21, 02:40 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
I want a bike that can stop consistently in the rain and allow for wider tires. Like the vast majority I don't race and therefore see no point in getting the lightest bike out there. What the pros don't care about are things like carbon rims getting destroyed and wider tires. You miss all these reasons when you reduce discs in the public down to "because that's what the pros ride, durr."
I get the advantage of disc brakes for a bike that you want wide tires on, to ride in rough conditions, be an all around bike. Thatís why I specíd my last bike with disc brakes. But itís a Swiss Army bike that will
do gravel, road, touring and isnít meant to win a race, or the Tuesday night Worlds.

However, context of this thread is Froome talking about discs for a full on road racing bike. He doesnít think they are there for that purpose. My point is that they definitely arenít for amateur racers and recreational riders whose goal is fast road riding, that 1) are not subject to UCI weight limits, and 2) donít have support to hand them up another bike.
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Old 02-11-21, 02:47 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
The premise is that without the weight limit, pros would not use discs. Pre weight limit equipment choices show pros will do a lot to shave an ounce. So do you quibble with that premise?.

Second premise is that big part of the high end bike market wants to ďbe like MikeĒ or in this case Lance, or
thomas, etc.

if Pro cyclists were shunning discs, and telling the
ptess they are doing so because they are too heavy, do you think people would buy disc brakes bikes at the high end in the same quantity?

So, rather than being cracked, the argument is
both valid and sound, ie the
premises are true, and the conclusion flows
from the premises.

if you disagree, tell me which of the premises is wrong, or why the conclusion doesnít follow form the premises.
I'm not sure how you're failing to understand my comment. Discs didn't see any significant use in the pro peloton until what - 2018? At that point the writing was already on the wall.
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Old 02-11-21, 02:54 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I'm not sure how you're failing to understand my comment. Discs didn't see any significant use in the pro peloton until what - 2018? At that point the writing was already on the wall.
And do you think if the Pro Peleton in mass refused to ride them because of the weight penalty, do you think they would be accepted by purchasers of high end road bikes?

Gravel, touring, commuting, likely, but vast majority of amateur racers, and wannabes would reject them if the pros said they were too heavy.
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Old 02-11-21, 03:02 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
And do you think if the Pro Peleton in mass refused to ride them because of the weight penalty, do you think they would be accepted by purchasers of high end road bikes?

Gravel, touring, commuting, likely, but vast majority of amateur racers, and wannabes would reject them if the pros said they were too heavy.
You stated that buyers were opting for discs because pros were riding discs. I pointed out that it was already apparent that discs would have a stranglehold on the market before discs were common in the peloton. IOW, it didn't matter what that the pros weren't riding discs - the market was moving on to discs ahead of them.

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Old 02-11-21, 03:03 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Gravel, touring, commuting, likely, but vast majority of amateur racers, and wannabes would reject them if the pros said they were too heavy.
That "vast majority" is the assumption that you can't back up with evidence.
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Old 02-11-21, 03:17 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
That "vast majority" is the assumption that you can't back up with evidence.
of course I canít; itís a counter factual proposition. To prove or disprove it weíd have to go back and eliminate the UCI weight limit 5 years or more ago when disc brakes started becoming a thing.

but the logic is pretty sound, given that pros arenít
bound by weight
limits gravitate to the lightest bikes, and amateur racers and wannabes gravitate to what the pros ride.

Honestly, I donít know why everyone is so upset. I get that disc brakes have their place. My point, however that no one has bothered to address, if your goal is to win races, or simply go fast, and you are not subject to UCI weight limits, discs today are still not the best choice.

Admittedly, as time goes on, the market shifts, disc technology improves, non disc tech stagnates this will
and already has to a degree changed.

I think itís disingenuous however to ignore the role UCi weight limits played in this.

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Old 02-11-21, 03:21 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
What in the world are you on about? I'm not "what if..." speculating. You stated that buyers were opting for discs because pros were riding discs. I pointed out that it was already apparent that discs would have a stranglehold on the market before discs were common in the peloton. IOW, it didn't matter what that the pros weren't riding discs - the market was moving on to discs ahead of them.

The development of discs occurred in a timeframe were Manufacturers knee they could easily hit the UCI weight limit, while still adding on discs and power meters. When thereís no weight penalty, anything that adds a little performance is better than adding lead weights.

My point is if Prios were still demanding lighter bikes, Manufacturers would be more focused on weight and it would be much harder to market discs.
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Old 02-11-21, 03:28 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
What in the world are you on about? I'm not "what if..." speculating. You stated that buyers were opting for discs because pros were riding discs.
I think itís actually a bit clearer stated the opposite way. The high end road bike market wonít buy what Pros wonít ride. Without a UCI weight limit pros would not be using discs, or certainly not to the same extent. If many pros donít use them because they say they are too heavy, do honestly think that would not affect sales.

Of course Pros do not say that because for them UCI weight limits make it irrelevant
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Old 02-11-21, 03:29 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
but the logic is pretty sound, given that pros nit
bound by weight
limits gravitate to the lightest bikes, and amateur racers and wannabes gravitate to what the pros ride.

I think itís disingenuous however to ignore the role UCi weight limits played in this.
WhyFi already pointed out the flaw in that. UCI didn't even formally allow disc brakes in road racing until very recently. The idea that the market for disc brakes exists only because the pros use them is simply not convincing.

When I go out, I see the majority of road cyclists using saddlebags, not wearing skinsuits, on clinchers, and in general not doing lots of things that pros do. But you are dead set on assuming that the type of brakes they use make people eager to ditch their old rim brakes and bust out their wallets for a more expensive replacement?
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Old 02-11-21, 03:36 PM
  #111  
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Your point -

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
it shouldnt matter what the Pros ride, but in practice it does. So the pros riding disc brake bike....
My point:

The market, late 2017 (from Full stop: road disc brakes take over in 2018) -

“2018 will be the tipping point for sure”

Shimano does not publicly share sales numbers, but road product manager Dave Lawrence says disc brakes are certainly overtaking rim brakes this year.

“It is across the board, not just high- or low-end bikes or groups,” Lawrence says. “It really ramped up in the second half of 2017, both OE [meaning original equipment sold to bike brands] and aftermarket. We have not been able to meet demand for Dura-Ace and Ultegra hydraulics. There is a good chance we will see disc eclipse rim brake in total sales in 2018.”
The Pros, 2019 (my bolding) -

Disc brakes in the peloton

There's been a lot of “will they won’t they” about disc brakes appearing in the pro peloton up until now, but this year marks a significant turning point as several teams have committed to disc brakes, and a few others are trialling them at more races.
Stop saying that people are blindly following the pro ranks when that was clearly not the case.

This is the last that I'll comment on this - this should be crystal clear, so if you still can't see how bass ackwards you've got things, there's little hope in leading you to yet another watering hole.

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Old 02-11-21, 03:43 PM
  #112  
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Iím not saying people are clamoring to buy disc brakes road bikes because the pros ride them. I am saying two things: 1) racers and fast recreational riders wouldnít ride bikes that the Pros shun due to weight, and 2) if your not subject to UCI rules and donít have pro support, Rim brakes are still today a better choice for amateur racing. As much as you guys want to quibble, no one has actually contradicted those two points.
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Old 02-11-21, 03:57 PM
  #113  
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1) The weight of discs vs rim brakes have no bearing on UCI permitted bikes. The bikes have a minimum weight that is far higher than the any 4 ounce difference between disc or rim will make.

2) If not subject UCI or any racing organization, why do you care what others think is right for them? If they are competing, then it will still be the person that crosses the line first. And more than the "best" brake type goes into getting one over the line first.
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Old 02-11-21, 04:06 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I race a Willier Zero 7, now 8 years old. It weighs 12 pounds.
Wow! 12 lbs.! And here I was just thinking that my 4 years old, just < 18 lbs. Cannondale Synapse is OK, because that is about what current Ultegra endurance disc road bikes weigh.
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Old 02-11-21, 04:13 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
1) The weight of discs vs rim brakes have no bearing on UCI permitted bikes. The bikes have a minimum weight that is far higher than the any 4 ounce difference between disc or rim will make.

2) If not subject UCI or any racing organization, why do you care what others think is right for them? If they are competing, then it will still be the person that crosses the line first. And more than the "best" brake type goes into getting one over the line first.
the total system weight difference is still way more than 4 ounces, and even if it was only 4 ounces, it would make a difference to Pros without a weight limit.

Ultimately, I donít care what you ride, knock yourself out. I do lament that my choices are becoming limited, due in part by an artificial rule, that only operates indirectly.

I do find it interesting people take such offense to the suggestion that rim brakes are still better for amateur racers who are not subject to the constraints of UCI rules, and do t have the benefit of Pro tour level support.

There appears to be a ton of confirmation bias here by people who have spent money on disc braked bikes (which admittedly with where the market is going, and for their particular use may be very well be a good choice for them). Owning both rimmed brakes bikes and disc brake bikes, Iíd like think Ií. Somewhat immune to that confirmation bias. I see the value of disc brakes for a number of applications. Non UCI racing is still not one of them, imho.
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Old 02-11-21, 04:15 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
Wow! 12 lbs.! And here I was just thinking that my 4 years old, just < 18 lbs. Cannondale Synapse is OK, because that is about what current Ultegra endurance disc road bikes weigh.
700 gram frame, mechanical sram red, zipp 303 tubulars at 1100 grams, comes in under 13 pounds, so itís 12 plus. On a dollar to dollar basis, your still paying a penalty for a comparable bike going from rim to disc.
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Old 02-11-21, 04:27 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
the total system weight difference is still way more than 4 ounces, and even if it was only 4 ounces, it would make a difference to Pros without a weight limit.

Ultimately, I don’t care what you ride, knock yourself out. I do lament that my choices are becoming limited, due in part by an artificial rule, that only operates indirectly.

I do find it interesting people take such offense to the suggestion that rim brakes are still better for amateur racers who are not subject to the constraints of UCI rules, and do t have the benefit of Pro tour level support.

There appears to be a ton of confirmation bias here by people who have spent money on disc braked bikes (which admittedly with where the market is going, and for their particular use may be very well be a good choice for them). Owning both rimmed brakes bikes and disc brake bikes, I’d like think I’. Somewhat immune to that confirmation bias. I see the value of disc brakes for a number of applications. Non UCI racing is still not one of them, imho.
It's just that you seem to have decided what is best for everyone. Not everyone will have quite the same desires for the performance of any one particular item as you or any other. To me it's much like arguing what color your frame should be painted.

I have both rim brake bikes and disc brake bikes. It's not a deal breaker for either. Brakes don't make you fast. They stop you.

Your bike seems to not be UCI legal, so why do you hinge your arguments around pro riders and UCI?

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Old 02-11-21, 04:41 PM
  #118  
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No what I’m advocating is that the market for high end road bikes, particularly for amateur racing, has been artificially distorted in an arcane fashion, by an arcane rule. So when Chris Froome says discs are not ready for road racing, that case is even more so for an amateur racer not subject UCI weight limits and not blessed with Pro Tour support ( I could not possibly imagine making a wheel change myself from a neutral wheel truck with a thru axle with any hope of getting back in the race.)

If you read my comments, you’d see I have disc brakes bikes, and acknowledge they have their place. Frankly, If I was going to buy a new race bike it would have disc brakes simply because I don’t change bikes often, and in the useful life of a new bike bought now, the market, technology and parts availability will pretty
much go totally disc.

That doesn’t change my position that right now a rimmed brake road bike is still a better tool for an amateur racer, and what’s going on in the market, as influenced by what Pros ride is distorted.

So I’m not trying to tell what people to ride, as much as give context to a situation where the market is eschewing very light race bikes in favor of heavier disc equipped bikes, for applications which in my opinion they are not the best tool.
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Old 02-11-21, 04:48 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
... if your not subject to UCI rules and donít have pro support, Rim brakes are still today a better choice for amateur racing.
As an amateur racer, I don't see any real advantage to rim brakes.
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Old 02-11-21, 05:07 PM
  #120  
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I don't see that the reasons that disc are here in the road bike community have much to do with pro's or UCI.

Probably it was more to do with the people that ride the genre of cycling that discs really do have some overwhelming positive points that were and are road bikers also. And perhaps if not more so the newbs that perceived the more than enough stopping power of discs better than the just enough stopping power of rim brakes. Those that tried to brake while their rim brakes were wet instantly were sold on the superiority of discs even if rim brakes would have stopped them soon enough not to have a bad ending.

Chris's concerns for brakes aren't my concerns. Both work well for me. My motivation for going to disc is that I'm seeing fewer and fewer choices for already built wheels that are inexpensive enough for me that are made for rim brakes.
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Old 02-11-21, 05:09 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
As an amateur racer, I don't see any real advantage to rim brakes.
Quicker wheel changes, pound and half of weight, with pretty much no difference in dry conditions in braking that ultimately limited by the tire’s contact patch, not the position of the brake caliper.

Have you ever taken a wheel from neutral support and had to pull out a 6mm Allen wrench to change the wheel, and caught back on.

Done it with a QR wheel. My experience with disch wheels and thru bolts makes me believe the time difference doing it myself, would result in a DNF
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Old 02-11-21, 06:10 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Quicker wheel changes, pound and half of weight, with pretty much no difference in dry conditions in braking that ultimately limited by the tireís contact patch, not the position of the brake caliper.
It doesn't take any longer to remove or install a disc brake wheel.

Rim brakes do not have an advantage by merely working as well as disc brakes in dry conditions.

In regards to weight, you're pretty far off the mark. My disc brake racing bike weighs a bit over 200 g more than the rim brake version, which is about 0.22% of the total bike + rider weight. I'm never going to lose a race because of that tiny bit of weight.

Have you ever taken a wheel from neutral support and had to pull out a 6mm Allen wrench to change the wheel, and caught back on.
No, because they make thru axles that don't need hex wrenches. Regardless, very few races here have neutral support. If you're removing a wheel, it's to install a new tube, and you're never going to chase back on anyway. (Which is why I went to tubeless tires for racing, even though I generally don't like them.)
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Old 02-11-21, 06:49 PM
  #123  
merlinextraligh
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It totally takes longer to switch a disc brake wheel with thru axle. Even with a lever built in, unscrewing it pulling it out, getting the wheel seated with disc, getting the thru axle started back in the threads. I can swap a Qr wheel in a couple of seconds. Everything goes right with a disc wheel it’s going to take twice as long. Any hiccups, ie the axle doesn’t want line up and thread or the disc doesn’t want to seat and it’s more than a minute and this doesn’t even raise the issue of the disc spacing being a mm off on a neutral support wheel..


I own 3 bikes with thru axles, and have or have had a gazillion with QR. It’s ignorant, or disingenuous to contend it’s as quick to change a disc wheel with thru axle. Hence many pro teams don’t even bother and just swap out whole bikes.
and who fixes a flat in a race? I don’t think I have ever done a road race without a wheel truck.

as for the 200 grams, let’s see a direct apple to apples same dollars comparison of weight. It’s getting harder because many bikes are no longer offered with rim brakes, but last time I checked, it was typically a pound or more. Admittedly the delta is closing. But just for an example a Canyon aero road can still be had in a rim brake version, and a comparable Aeroroad with rims brakes is a pound light and a $1000 or so cheaper than a comparable disc brake version. If you want to get to the 15 pound UCI limit with a disc bike you’re going to pay, and very difficult without doing some very speedy stuff to get sub 13.

Pretty sure you can’t get a sub 14 pound, sub 5k bike with discs, and you can easily with rim brakes.

And even if it is 200 grams, why give up half a pound when your braking is still limited by your contact patch?
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Last edited by merlinextraligh; 02-11-21 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 02-11-21, 07:14 PM
  #124  
tomato coupe
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
It totally takes longer to switch a disc brake wheel with thru axle. Even with a lever built in, unscrewing it pulling it out, getting the wheel seated with disc, getting the thru axle started back in the threads. I can swap a Qr wheel in a couple of seconds. Everything goes right with a disc wheel it’s going to take twice as long. Any hiccups, ie the axle doesn’t want line up and thread or the disc doesn’t want to seat and it’s more than a minute and this doesn’t even raise the issue of the disc spacing being a mm off on a neutral support wheel.
and who fixes a flat in a race? I don’t think I have ever done a road race without a wheel truck.
Lucky you. Most of the races here don't offer wheel support. So, if you don't fix your flat, you don't even get a good training ride in. Even in the races that offer neutral support, the time to remove and install a wheel is minor compared to the time it takes to actually get the wheel.

as for the 200 grams, let’s see a direct apple to apples same dollars comparison of weight. It’s getting harder because many bikes are no longer offered with rim brakes, but last time I checked, it was typically a pound or two comparing the same bike.
I checked it when I built my last race bike. The frame was a few grams heavier and the bare wheels were the same. The total difference was basically a bit more than the weight of the rotors.

Last edited by StanSeven; 02-13-21 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Deleted rude remarks
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Old 02-11-21, 07:29 PM
  #125  
merlinextraligh
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Lucky you. Most of the races here don't offer wheel support. So, if you don't fix your flat, you don't even get a good training ride in. Even in the races that offer neutral support, the time to remove and install a wheel is minor compared to the time it takes to actually get the wheel.


I checked it when I built my last race bike. The frame was a few grams heavier and the bare wheels were the same. The total difference was basically a bit more than the weight of the rotors.

let’s see the exact two bikes. And 3 bikes over 10 years with discs, I think I know how to change a wheel. And if it’s so easy, why do Pro teams that have the money not even bother to change wheels now and just change bikes.
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Last edited by StanSeven; 02-13-21 at 04:33 PM.
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