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Power meters

Old 02-13-21, 09:07 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I don't know about that. I'm using a power meter to monitor volume of training both post hoc and also during a session. I'm not sure a heart rate monitor could do that.
It could not. A watch or GPS could. There are a lot of things a PM is good for.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
It could not. A watch or GPS could. There are a lot of things a PM is good for.
I find time, distance, or the combination of both, speed, very poor measures of training volume.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:09 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
why is it your opinion that people shouldnít use a power meter to train? Many many professional cyclists as well as amateurs successfully train using power meters
Many, most all pros HAVE PMs. But who uses them to train? Who has published that they look at that power number to determin how hard to go. You will read some that were trying for 500W intervals, but they did not feel so good, so dialed it down and only did 450W that day. That is training to RPE - not power. Race to power and you are not paying attention to the race.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:13 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
HR only tells you the rate that blood is getting pumped to the muscles, and it's not the most effective way to train. The muscles are what do the work and drives your bike forward or up hill. Power is a direct measure of the work your muscles are doing. The amount of blood flow can't give you that kind of direct measurement.

HRM have been around since at least the late 70s (maybe earlier?) so we've all used them, but for racing or big events I was always so excited and hyped up at the start of a race the HR was always way way too high, so I stopped wearing it for events because it was useless. The power meter never lies and isn't 'wrong' due to race day excitement or a Krispy-Kreme doughnut.
What is the most effective way to train?

When you are doing 500W intervals and you do not feel up to it, what should you do? Do 500W anyway? I think you will dig yourself into a hole.
HRM are a tool as are pulse oximiters and PMs. What is your morning resting HR? What is your blood pressure, what is your SPO2. All that helps tell you what your body can take that day - and how you feel. A PM tells you how much power you put out, it is not a reflection of your body.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:17 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
It's difficult to improve what you don't measure. Runners can use a watch to track progress but cyclists need something other than speed on the flats. You don't need to be a slave to the numbers while training but I don't know how else you determine if a particular block of training is effective. For cyclists who don't have a lot of experience properly pacing intensity of intervals a powermeter can be very helpful and better than RPE or HR.
Speed and winning are better measures IMO. Power is a measure, but you can put out more power and be slower. That is generally the issue with ITT position. If you use power numbers to override how you feel you likely won't be getting better. It is a measure of getting more powerful, it may not be a measure of getting faster, or winning.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:17 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Many, most all pros HAVE PMs. But who uses them to train? Who has published that they look at that power number to determin how hard to go. You will read some that were trying for 500W intervals, but they did not feel so good, so dialed it down and only did 450W that day. That is training to RPE - not power. Race to power and you are not paying attention to the race.
If someone plans to do 500 W intervals, but dials it down to 450 W (for whatever reason), they are clearly using a power meter to train.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:19 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I find time, distance, or the combination of both, speed, very poor measures of training volume.
How do you know what training volume makes you better? And for what? Is 500 miles/week better than 200 miles/week? Again - for what?
And...how is a PM going to help you be better at either otehr than tuning position and equipment?
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Old 02-13-21, 09:22 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
What is the most effective way to train?
I can't think of a more misguided question. There is no one most effective way and to believe so shows a total lack of understanding.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:24 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
And...how is a PM going to help you be better at either otehr than tuning position and equipment?
By allowing me to tailor my training to my own needs and goals and then execute according to that plan.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:27 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
If someone plans to do 500 W intervals, but dials it down to 450 W (for whatever reason), they are clearly using a power meter to train.
That is like saying I felt my tire and the pressuer felt good - the gage said 112PSI. You are not pumping to the gage, you are recording what the gage said. On another day, you might decide to use a different pressure. You are deciding - not the gage. Otehrs pump to the same PSI all the time - because they do.

Those that record power decided based on RPE / feel / morning HR that they were going to take it easier. The power meter just recorded it. So what. What will they do differently the next day? Just seeing speed will tell them they are off and they might go to bed earlier, skip a gym workout, or use lighter weights or ride fewer miles. They are not using the power meter to train.

As you believe me...I have 12 years of my kid's PM files and 25 years of wifes PM files and many many comparison's to pros (who are less power as they ride shorter distance). I have the books. I don't see how it helps. Nor does Cam Wurf (Kona 2X record holder) or Tailor Finney.
Show me the pro who publishes they use that power number to determine how hard to work. That is training to power. Their might be some, I can't find them.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:32 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
As you believe me...I have 12 years of my kid's PM files and 25 years of wifes PM files and many many comparison's to pros (who are less power as they ride shorter distance). I have the books. I don't see how it helps. Nor does Cam Wurf (Kona 2X record holder) or Tailor Finney.
Tailor Finney? Is that Albert's kid? Maybe you're thinking of Taylor Phinney?
Show me the pro who publishes they use that power number to determine how hard to work. That is training to power. Their might be some, I can't find them.
Well, my former coach certainly used a power meter in the fashion everyone else is describing. He was a top 10 TdF finisher, so I think he knew what he was doing.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:32 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I can't think of a more misguided question. There is no one most effective way and to believe so shows a total lack of understanding.
It depends on the goal, in neither case do I see a power meter making you faster.

For distance - you generally ride more miles
For speed - a weight program and time on bike

Training for both the above mean knowing what yout body can take and then recover from. Both are measured by speed. Where does power fit in?
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Old 02-13-21, 09:39 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
By allowing me to tailor my training to my own needs and goals and then execute according to that plan.
Good. So for Wed, you plan on 60 min at 250W (or whatever somebody makes up thinking that makes them fitter) and turn around at 30 min regardless how far you go.
But Wed AM - you do not feel so good. Do you - train to plan, or adjust?
Those that train to plan I am arguing do not improve.
Those that train to RPE improve more.

The PM does record power improvement, but the whole point is speed (I think), so why not measure that?

HR is a better reflection of RPE/how you feel. An elevated morning HR says your are fatigued.
Take your BP sitting and standing. If you see it drop when standing, you are fatigued or dehydrated.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:41 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Good. So for Wed, you plan on 60 min at 250W (or whatever somebody makes up thinking that makes them fitter) and turn around at 30 min regardless how far you go.
I never described how I train or use a PM. Don't put words in my mouth.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:43 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Tailor Finney? Is that Albert's kid? Maybe you're thinking of Taylor Phinney?

Well, my former coach certainly used a power meter in the fashion everyone else is describing. He was a top 10 TdF finisher, so I think he knew what he was doing.
The latest TdF winners have few years experiance (based on age). Even 2nd place started so late he has a few year's experiance. Do you think it is their coaching or talent that got them there? I doubt it was training to power - or disc brakes.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:47 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
The latest TdF winners have few years experiance (based on age). Even 2nd place started so late he has a few year's experiance. Do you think it is their coaching or talent that got them there? I doubt it was training to power - or disc brakes.
This makes even less sense than the previous non-sensical statement you made.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:48 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I never described how I train or use a PM. Don't put words in my mouth.
Obviously used as an example. Tell us how you change your effort based on what the PM display says.
Nobody on the forum yet - inc racing -33 or general has told me how they train to power in 5 years - Meaning they use that number on the power meter to determine how hard they ride, vs just recording how hard they road.

Everyone with a PM uses it to record. That is not training TO power. That is like a Strava recording.
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Old 02-13-21, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
This makes even less sense than the previous non-sensical statement you made.
When training, how do you vary your effort (or your coach) based on what number you see on the PM?
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Old 02-13-21, 09:55 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Everyone with a PM uses it to record. That is not training TO power. That is like a Strava recording.
Can you really make a living as a goal post mover? In case you forgot, you originally said this
Originally Posted by Doge View Post
My point is you should not use them to train.
Nothing about training TO [sic] power.
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Old 02-13-21, 10:35 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Outrider1 View Post
I've been doing a fair amount of research on power meters the different types and price range is mindboggling. For those of you who utilize a power meter, what type did you go with? I appreciate your input!

I have a used Quarg crank spider- I think paid ~$400. Have had to fuss with it a few times, but overall good, & only adds 50g to bike weight.

Looking for a Powertap hub or wheel for a 2nd bike, which I hope to get for $100-$150.
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Old 02-13-21, 10:45 PM
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I have PowerTap P2 dual-sided pedals. They were originally P1 but one of them developed a problem where it would stop reporting beyond a certain wattage and SRAM sent me P2 as a warranty replacement. Of course now that they've discontinued selling PowerTaps, who knows what support if any there will be.

I've used the pedals for a variety of things, like pacing up climbs that I'd never been on before while passing others who went too hard and gassed themselves very successfully, doing indoor training on Zwift/Rouvy/etc. before I had a smart trainer, verifying the smart trainer power readings were matching. And of course swapping them between bikes. During the pandemic, I trained to power in order to do a vEveresting by focusing on long high-Z2, endurance riding on the weekends and shorter sweetspot sessions during the week. Knowing my upper-limit Z2 power was critical in pacing, as many start out too strong (even Phil Gaimon did on his first failed attempt this year) otherwise.
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Old 02-13-21, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Outrider1 View Post
I've been doing a fair amount of research on power meters the different types and price range is mindboggling. For those of you who utilize a power meter, what type did you go with? I appreciate your input!
I went with Favero Assioma pedals because they were relatively inexpensive compared to others, and also because they're the most convenient to move between bikes. I was a Shimano SPD-SL user, so I was initially apprehensive about switching cleat systems, and the standard cleats bundled with the pedals didn't give me any confidence at all - I nearly slipped at the shop immediately after putting them on! Fortunately I switched to the version with rubber grips and they've been great; in fact I've already switched pedals and cleats on my other bikes and shoes for compatibility.
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Old 02-13-21, 11:59 PM
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I have a Quarq on my road bike and a Stages on my TT.
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Old 02-14-21, 01:00 AM
  #49  
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I have a Quarq CF crankset on one bike and a Stages left sided on another, both are good, reliable (well, do replace batteries in a timely way) and read very close to each other and our indoor trainer. Wife has Assioma pedals which also work great although she had issues clipping in and out from the gate (fiddling with tension and a little oil and it works).

Itís a brilliant tool for training and also for pacing long sustained efforts, in general. I would rather ride a bike with 105 and a PM than a bike with Ultegra and without.
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Old 02-14-21, 04:29 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Many, most all pros HAVE PMs. But who uses them to train? Who has published that they look at that power number to determin how hard to go. You will read some that were trying for 500W intervals, but they did not feel so good, so dialed it down and only did 450W that day. That is training to RPE - not power. Race to power and you are not paying attention to the race.
thatís a moment of training at RPE. Having a power meter and using it to train that thereís no ability to adjust EVER.
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